INDEPENDENCE

[gizmo]

Ah Shona. Bless you, you don't understand. Alex has said it will be fine, you don't need to worry.
Any worries you have are just caused by lying Tories. They don't care like us Scots do.

[Shona]

The NHS is fully devolved to the Scottish Parliament, Baz.

It's disingenuous of Salmond to suggest that the only way to protect the NHS in Scotland is to break away. In fact, I read at the weekend that the NHS in Scotland has spent more than £400 million on private health care since the SNP came to power! The total NHS money spent on private health care increased from £68 million in 2011-12 to more than £80 million in 2012-13.

Moving back to the currency conundrum...Salmond wants us to vote to leave a union to be independent, but to remain in a union with regard the currency.

Another aspect of the debate which leaves me cold is the constant denigrating of England and blaming all of Scotland's perceived woes on either England or Westminster.

Politically, I'm an internationalist not a nationalist.

[Hume]

Shona, do you want to see the UK give up sovereignty via a United States of Europe, say?

[baz]

The NHS is fully devolved to the Scottish Parliament, Baz.

.... and that is why it is in good shape, compared to elsewhere.
Too bad the funding is isn't.

Moving back to the currency conundrum...Salmond wants us to vote to leave a union to be independent, but to remain in a union with regard the currency.

Two Independent countries can have a currency union. Why not?
Reappraise the matter, as and when it suits the country and its people.
Heres the thing though ......
The Union says we can't, just because they say so,
when actually we could and probably will,
but they are just being pissy about it.

Another aspect of the debate which leaves me cold is the constant denigrating of England and blaming all of Scotland's perceived woes on either England or Westminster.

.... and why not?
Westminster governs Scotland as it chooses.
It collects and spends.
Scotland can do that for itself.

The problem is Westminster, some people equate that with England,
which is understandable, if somewhat misinformed.
The people of Scotland can best determine how their taxes should be spent.
through democratic process, which is long overdue.

[Hume]

Central is the currency issue.

I’ll concede that currency will be an issue for many people and with the help of their ever willing media operation, the BBC in the main, Better Together have succeeded in making it a difficult subject for Yes.

I was having doubt myself about how it should be handled i.e. should Yes define a Plan B or not but thankfully I’m not a political strategist and others who know better know that is exactly what Better Together want. Darling has already rubbished all the other options to a currency union, as you have, so by default he is accepting a currency union is the best option. In what is effectively a game at present, he is not going to admit that, just in the same way Yes are not going to spell out a Plan B. In the event of a Yes vote, the politics stop and the economics begin.

No matter how many times people say there have been no answers on currency, it does not get away from the fact Scotland will be using the Pound post independence. The answer has been given, it’s the Pound.

In saying all that, for me its not the central issue as you say Shona. I find it a real pity that the independence of a nation could come down to what currency is used.

I remember saying previously that at one time or another Labour and the Lib Dems favoured using the Euro too and have since changed their minds. Is that not what politicians should do, propose what they feel is best for the people they represent and adapt that accordingly if necessary? Are you absolutely sure adopting the Euro is a condition of joining the EU? There seems to be about 10 countries in the EU at present not using the euro so no doubt that would be a point for negotiation. Better Together don’t even seem to be pushing this angle, in fact they seem to have dropped the whole ‘out of the EU’ argument entirely. I wonder why? Currency is all they have left now.

You’ve again made the point about the BoE and MPC setting interest rates and controlling monetary policy. If you think monetary policy is set with Scotland in mind now, we’ll need to disagree. Its set with an eye on what is best for the South, which is often at a different point in the economic cycle to the North of England and Scotland. Of course the fact is, the BoE is the central bank for Sterling and is independent from Government. If a currency union is agreed then it could legitimately be argued that another country is NOT setting our interest rates. It would be the same central bank that has set them since 1997 that would continue to do so. Simply because it is based in London, in theory, has no bearing.

If you don’t accept that, which I suspect you won’t then, do you regard France’s independence as being a mockery because its interest rate is set in Germany?

[lochend]

Keep at it Shona, 'they don't like it up em' to quote corporal Jones. The complete certainty of the forum independence zealots is quite alarming,any poster who expresses misgivings or doubts is clobbered with a plethora of wishes, opinions and hopes dressed up as facts!

[EphemeralDeception]

It is funny how many Scots really underestimate ourselves.

In this week's courier No thanks stated, we only get to keep the pound if we vote no. This is a bare faced lie and somehow doesn't seem to concern some posters here but having to have the currency mostly influenced by the state of the English economy just like it does today is somehow an issue and a deal breaker. But this isn't: the ability to govern ourselves over Wars, Energy, Social Policy, Law, Constitution, and everything else? Give me a break.

a) Sterling currency belongs to us pro rata as does the UK central bank and we can use our pound, if and when we want to and in any case we print and hold currency already in the BoE to cover the value of all our Scottish Sterling printed money. Even if it wasn't our currency and nothing to do with the Union then we can use it if and when we want.

b)The lender of last resort fear story is totally bogus. Scotland has all the black gold and other resources it needs short term as real collateral. We have huge, valuable assets that will count against any loans and our credit ratings, just like your house counts towards your own credit rating not how much free cash you have. Our balance of payments is far superior to the rUK and this really counts towards the value of the currency used.

c) Why ignore the fact that a UK minister exposed the bluff by stating on record that it is indeed all a bluff? That Alistair Darling himself also stated live on TV that it was logical and has tried to deny it ever since?


Scotland either has a strong economy or it has not, regardless of our currency but we do need stability in the early days. As for plan B, Salmond is on record stating : we will use the Pound come what may. So one thing is certain. Yes or No we will continue to use the Pound for many years.

======================
Other certainties: UK can give regions the power over health policy but if UK holds the purse strings then UK controls the Health budget so UK controls Health. As this will with 100% certainty get smaller with a No vote then our health service will be impacted and will be forced to adopt the London UK model. Same goes for education and everything else.

However as an earlier poster stated this referendum is really about: is Scotland a Country or is it a Region? Our choice.
If we vote to be a region we will be governed as a region and we would have given a mandate to implement any policy whatsoever, it is that simple. Note: Unelected HOL is already drawing up new laws to take back devolved powers over Fracking.

All this fretting over these uncertainties could have been cleared up really easily and keep the Union if we wanted to. Scotland could control all our revenue and expenses but pay into the UK for shared services (Defence, Foreign policy, whatever). The Calman Commission examined this but refused to propose it as they stated it would lead to the break up of the UK. Why should that be? Simply, it is not on the table because it would show Scots what idiots we have been and how badly we have been governed and deceived (Especially by our own MPs). We would go independent ASAP. Not my words. Read the Calman commission's interim report.

Think about it.

[muppetanimal]

Ah Shona. Bless you, you don't understand. Alex has said it will be fine, you don't need to worry.
Any worries you have are just caused by lying Tories. They don't care like us Scots do.

And they used to say that sarcasm was the lowest form of wit.

Gizmo has taken this to a new level. Sarcasm is now the lowest form of intelligence.

[lochend]

The boss of HSBC,the worlds biggest bank says "Scottish independence would be a giant step into economic uncertainty" Yet Baz and his ilk have not the slightest doubts? I suppose the banker must be promulgating another of the no campaign's numerous lies?

[gizmo]

Ah Shona. Bless you, you don't understand. Alex has said it will be fine, you don't need to worry.
Any worries you have are just caused by lying Tories. They don't care like us Scots do.

And they used to say that sarcasm was the lowest form of wit.

Gizmo has taken this to a new level. Sarcasm is now the lowest form of intelligence.

Profound. Far from original, but profound.

[baz]

The boss of HSBC,the worlds biggest bank says
"Scottish independence would be a giant step into economic uncertainty"

Of course there will be economic uncertainty,
until Independence is negotiated by both parties.
But then, the world exists in such a state on a daily basis.

HSBC .... laundering drug money, mis-selling, libor rate-rigging, asset-stripping the NHS

So you see, the boss at HSBC should hardly be trusted.
He speaks on behalf of The City of London.
Independence will disrupt their status quo.

Baz and his ilk

Ilk?
I have no ilk.
I am a beautiful and unique snowflake.

[baz]

[baz]

"Our United Kingdom is better if we stay together" .... David Cameron

And there it is.
Nothing about Scotland being better within the Union.

Just the Union being better with Scotland within it.


The Referendum is about what is best for Scotland, not the Union

[lochend]

"The Referendum is about what is best for Scotland, not the Union." Renege on your share of the national debt and hope to walk off with what is left of North sea oil? Smells a bit of a betrayal don't you think? And as for the argument about continuing with the union would mean a massive deterioration of the NHS when you well know the Scottish NHS is already fully devolved! A bit disingenuous don't you think?

[baz]

Ah, lochend ..... selective as ever.

Why bother with reality and fact?
Just ignore the legal and definitive answers which you don't accept.
After all, it would only leave the nay sayers stamping their feet,
like a child in the sweetie aisle in Tesco, for want of a legitimate
rebuttal to sound and reasoned assertion.

Betrayal?
Should we just scurry off, and count ouselves lucky?