Kintyre Way Meeting

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Postby Malky » Tue Apr 04, 2006 9:57 pm

thep wrote:Ach am away tae iron ma y-fronts! :shock:

Mind take them off first :shock:

Actually, I wrote a couple of paragraphs there about the dismissive attitude you got while trying to help promote this venture and the reasons for it. Unfortunately it came over as very anti- incomer/English/etc. :shock: It would be politically incorrect of me to do that, so I shall just walk away *doffing cap, tugging forelock* :twisted:

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Postby paraffin man » Tue Apr 04, 2006 10:09 pm

thep wrote:Paraffin Man - I actually have made a number of enquiries over the year for information but to little or no avail.

Please don't ignore the very people who have seen Kintyre through good times and the not so distant bad times! :idea:

Ach am away tae iron ma y-fronts! :shock:



Mr P, i take it you are askiing the Kintyre Way people not to ignore us? or are you asking me not to ignore the local peeps :shock: , i can walk by you in the street the next time i see you if you want?

Maybe i should walk by you if you iron yer y's, imagine a man his age walkin aboot wi creases n his pants!
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Postby Ship called Dignity » Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:06 pm

I should have said however, I did receive a reply to two e-mails I did send after the meeting which was encouraging.

Just keen to promote!
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Re: Kintyre Way Meeting

Postby Ship called Dignity » Thu Apr 06, 2006 9:45 pm

Bobbie En Tejas wrote:
thep wrote:
linda_j wrote:
Kintyre News wrote:Remember there is a meeting about the Kintyre Way in the Argyll Hotel in Campbeltown tomorrow night.

Of course there was one in Tarbert tonight!


Can I ask what this was about ?


Linda,

From June 10th you will be able to walk the length of Kintyre. Starting in Tarbert and finishing in Southend a mere 89 miles later. The walk looks really good as it goes from one side of the peninsula to the other on the way down. Looks like fun!


Davie, are there any plans to have a grand opening walk or something? Some fanfare? Discounted lodging and food for people who start the walk on opening day or something? I still have my airline ticket to scotland, and that would be majorly cool if there was something like that going on. I'm not even sure I could do it, but it would be a lot of fun to try.


Bobbie,

Yes - there are plans for a grand opening which were mentioned at the meeting. The Kintyre Way are encouraging people to organise events to co-incide with the opening and we will try to find out more.

Anyone interested in doing the first part on the 10th June? :lol: 8)

Regards

p
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Kintyre Way Courier letter

Postby paraffin man » Fri Apr 07, 2006 8:20 pm

What's the views on the letter then?

I thought it to be pretty 'wooly' never really got any firm answers.

As i have stated before, i am for the project but slightly concerned that a project that has been 4 years in the planning has still to complete some major items, i.e emergency planning a month before it opens.

Was slightly taken aback by the 'few recent incomer' referances though, does the Kintyre way directors feel that they are being slated for being incomers from the locals?

The other concern is we have not seen a final route for this we have saw plenty proposed routes, do th eorganisers have the final route signed, sealed & delivered yet?
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Re: Kintyre Way Courier letter

Postby petewick » Sat Apr 08, 2006 10:08 am

paraffin man wrote:What's the views on the letter then?

I thought it to be pretty 'wooly' never really got any firm answers.

As i have stated before, i am for the project but slightly concerned that a project that has been 4 years in the planning has still to complete some major items, i.e emergency planning a month before it opens.

Was slightly taken aback by the 'few recent incomer' referances though, does the Kintyre way directors feel that they are being slated for being incomers from the locals?

The other concern is we have not seen a final route for this we have saw plenty proposed routes, do th eorganisers have the final route signed, sealed & delivered yet?




I share your view on the incomer reference, parf and that the directors did not give their names.

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Re: Kintyre Way

Postby Ship called Dignity » Sat Apr 08, 2006 12:55 pm

Johnnie Walker wrote:.. but predominantly by a few recent incomers with tourist businesses well north of Campbeltown, who wish to sell Kintye for their own personal benefit; to quote their own words, as a “brand”.


I think it is with reference to above..
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Postby Iona » Sun Apr 09, 2006 9:17 am

Personally don't know what ths fuss about is with regards this walk - anything which brings people to the area in a controlled manner is only good thing????? Are the same people complaining about those who are setting up the Irish Ferry? What about other ventures which are attracting visitors to the area - are they to be blamed for their efforts?

This means the same could be said about those organising anything or trying to improve the area? Should the same criticism be levelled of the Music Festival, The Airshow, the Golf Clubs, te Hotels, The newly formed Half Marathon, the yacht race in Tarbert - who are all actively trying to promote Kintyre? You could even complain about this forum and the visitkintyre website then?

I am not naive enough to think that change does not have its negatives - just look at Oban and especially Mull now. Both places run over by enthusiastic newcomers to the area who without a doubt have changed the very community we once had. Oban always had the potential for change with its links to the Islands and its railway network but I would have never thought Mull would change so much. It is one Island where I don't feel change is for the better - ask the lcoals who are now pushed out of their very own community.

It is all about balance at the end of the day - Kintyre, to me, is the most beuatiful place on this planet and it is only a matter of time before the rest of the world sees this. Change will always happen it is just about striking a balance. 8)

PS - The Webcam is not working - is it nice down there? It is lovely here this morning!
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Kintyre Way Conclusions

Postby Johnnie Walker » Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:08 am

Referring to my open letter request for information to the Kintyre Way organisers and to their promised reply in the Courier. There was no reply to that letter. No information whatsoever, apart from some vague reassurances, a statement that the Council and others are involved, a reference to a website holding page and a statement that the Way is to be run by a Limited Company (a Limited Company only provides protection for the directors and investors, by the way, it actually removes protection from the public or anyone else).

Anyway, that’s getting away from the main points, of which there are three:-

1. The running of the campaign.

From one point of view, it has been a textbook operation. From another, a disaster.

Was the task to get a contentious issue past any possible opposition - not to tell anyone any details - ignore all those who might discuss the matter independently and not quite fit the chosen line - smooth things over with a few platitudes... then, by the time it’s up and running, it’s too late for anyone to do anything?

Or was the task that of a major public project - which would affect virtually everybody in a given area - which would require funding by public money and which should be the subject of a full and informed public discussion with freely available information on both the positives and the negatives- long before any commitments were made?

Which description do you think fits?

2. The practical thought and preparation.

For the organisers to claim that everyone will meekly get the bus from Campbeltown to Machrihanish, or on any other of the road sections, merely gives an example of just how utterly impractical the thinking is. When a keen walker has completed the 89 mile Kintyre Way, are they really going to want to admit to anyone, or even to themselves that, actually, they got a bus for six miles of it? And this is only one example.

The organisers have refused to give any hard information. So, I shall make some educated guesses. If the organisers know different, then say so. Answer the questions in the open letter. Show us the map.

I must emphasise that, with the complete lack of hard information, much of the following is only guesswork.

After four years of preparation and with less than two months to go till the opening, there is still at least ten percent of the route that is yet to be agreed. The organisers may have fall back routes, but they are currently pressurising farmers to give way in time for the opening. At least one of these farmers has only been very recently approached. In fact, however, the vast majority of farmers that have been asked over the past four years have refused permission. There are serious issues regarding both Public Liability, likely collateral damage and the new rights under the Land Reform Act. It is one thing to have people on land because they have a legal right to be there, but quite another to actually invite them on.

Maintenance. There have been volunteers kindly offering to help with maintenance, but the main staffing provisions consist of one part time or seasonal warden and committed funding is only a relatively few thousand pounds. For an 89 mile long walk. Compare this with the West Highland Way, only six miles longer at 95 miles, where there are numbers of both full time and seasonal staff and the actual annual running costs are in the region of £400,000! It’s still only a path - no different to what is proposed here. How is this one going to be paid for? There seems to be no requirement for the beneficiaries of the path - hotels and such like, to contribute to its maintenance. To paraphrase a current well known advert, the organisers may well be very good at doing the pizzas, but they are obviously leaving it to someone else to do the Math.

Whilst on the subject of the West Highland Way. Looking at their site, I found a new name to contend with - Giardia. Look up
http://www.west-highland-way.co.uk/mainFrame.htm
and click on General Info. Giardia is endemic in other countries and is spreading in this. It’s a very nasty parasitic stomach bug, possibly even fatal if resistance is low, spread by drinking water from areas that have been contaminated by the faeces of a carrier. Or simply from contact with the ground. Or it can be picked up by a pet and brought into the home. People and animals can be carriers without knowing it. As a result of this walk and an almost complete lack of toilet provisions, Giardia is going to become endemic in Kintyre. Check it out for yourself.

Back to the route itself. Of the 89 miles, rather more than a third of the Way is on public roads. That is some thirty miles of road walking much of it single track and/or known for its high speeds. All of it highly dangerous. Are the organisers relying upon some nasty accidents to pressurise adjacent farmers into allowing them to walk over their land?

Regarding the remoter parts of the route, the organisers admit that large areas are not covered by mobile phone signals and that there are no safety provisions to cover those areas, other than our existing and willing - keen, even, but underfunded, search and rescue services (and how they going to know that someone needs rescuing?). Whilst the organisers of the Way fully intend to make as much as they can out of any visitors, as I understand it, there is no provision for supervision (so that someone knows who is out on the hill and when they are due/overdue), nor for them to contribute anything toward the inevitable costs of search and rescue that will result from the Way.

The whole thing is being started in an ill prepared, “It will be all right on the night” sort of way. No real long term provisions, just a hope that it will work out in the end.

3. Benefits.

It is, however, very easy to stand on the sidelines and criticise.

I have to also state that the Way organisers have stuck their necks out and are, potentially, actually coming up with something. Sure, it is probably motivated by their own self interest, but it will bring a number of jobs. Mostly indirectly, but much needed, all the same.

It could also bring in a lot of extra people in to enjoy Kintyre. This would be a real and substantial benefit to each and every one of these visitors.

It could also bring the benefit of paths where there are none. I should certainly use them myself and I’m sure a lot more local people could get access to remoter areas by using them as well.

Conclusion.

If you want to try to get something off the ground but have insufficient resources, then the only way that it might remotely be possible is on a wing and a prayer. This is precisely what the organisers of the Way are doing.

But if what you want to start necessarily involves a whole community (see Iona from Oban’s comments on Sunday 9th April- I feel these give a well balanced view of the situation there), then I think you should do it in the open and only after fully informed discussions with that community. You need to point out the problems as well as the benefits (the letter to the Courier did neither). If the idea really is a good one, then there is nothing to fear from open debate... or from criticism. Indeed, this will probably be the very best avenue for ideas and solutions.

And finally, as the lady from the West Highland Way said at the meeting, how can you take thousands of people into a wilderness, yet keep it a wilderness?.

Thanks for reading this. :)
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The Forum

Postby Johnnie Walker » Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:10 am

On a more general subject, may I say a big thank you to David and Malky for this Forum and for the opportunity to have a say. A letter was published in the paper as well, but it had to be necessarily short and couldn’t really lead to much of a discussion. Whereas here, on the Forum, everybody can pitch in, no matter what their opinion, and ideas can be developed.

The Organisers of the Way have tried to ignore it and the Courier has failed to mention it, even though it is extremely relevant news...

But this is where the future is. Thanks.
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Postby Malky » Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:35 am

JW, we wrote a letter to the Courier (for the letters page) telling them that a debate was ongoing on the forum here and anyone interested could login and have their say. Courier knocked us back saying we were advertising :? :roll:

Although I can see their point to a degree, we're not exactly selling something :?

Perhaps they see us as a threat :wink:

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Competition or collaboration?

Postby Mary G » Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:11 pm

That negative response is a pity, and somewhat short-sighted. I would say that all the different media that we use to communicate will benefit from a collaborative approach - for the foreseeable future. Argyll FM, the Courier, and this forum, as well as standing on street corners, chatting in the pubs, etc, each benefit from the existence of the rest.

So a story broken in the Courier can become a topic on the radio, bringing in phone-in reactions for an hour or so. At the same time a discussion on that topic, over a few days or weeks, can take place on this forum, with contributions from far and wide, and linked references to similar cases elsewhere. The Courier can then summarise how the issue is progressing in subsequent weeks.

The Half-Marathon and 10k run are a good example of how all three media – as well as word of mouth – are being used together, and constructively.

And in general, the more avenues we have to explore an issue, the healthier is the scrutiny that it receives, and also the more creative are the responses to the problems we encounter. No need to feel threatened, in my view.
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Re: Competition or collaboration?

Postby Ship called Dignity » Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:58 pm

Mary G wrote:That negative response is a pity, and somewhat short-sighted. I would say that all the different media that we use to communicate will benefit from a collaborative approach - for the foreseeable future. Argyll FM, the Courier, and this forum, as well as standing on street corners, chatting in the pubs, etc, each benefit from the existence of the rest.


Hi Mary,

Just for sake of clarity - what response are you referring to?

Regards
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Re: Kintyre Way Conclusions

Postby Ranald » Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:01 pm

Johnnie Walker wrote:Whilst on the subject of the West Highland Way. Looking at their site, I found a new name to contend with - Giardia. Look up
http://www.west-highland-way.co.uk/mainFrame.htm
and click on General Info. Giardia is endemic in other countries and is spreading in this. It’s a very nasty parasitic stomach bug, possibly even fatal if resistance is low, spread by drinking water from areas that have been contaminated by the faeces of a carrier. Or simply from contact with the ground. Or it can be picked up by a pet and brought into the home. People and animals can be carriers without knowing it. As a result of this walk and an almost complete lack of toilet provisions, Giardia is going to become endemic in Kintyre. Check it out for yourself.


The West Highland Way Site wrote:Anyone worried about Giardia should note that incidences are very rare in this country, but the number is rising


Why do I get the feeling that whatever the organisers say, you're going to keep finding new arguments to throw at them?

Doesn't sound like we should be too scared of this Giardia just yet :roll:
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Guardia is not an endemic!

Postby Annie » Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:12 pm

One person can pass millions of G. lamblia cysts each day, and most infections probably result from ingestion of water or food contaminated with human sewage. Open sewers in city streets and contamination of drinking water with this sewage undoubtedly results in many infections. However, in some countries the use of human fecal material ("night soil") as a fertilizer is also an important source of infection. Many cases of "traveler's diarrhea" are caused by Giardia. Even in developed countries potable water can be contaminated with small amounts of sewage, especially when septic systems are built too close to wells. Thus, it is not surprising that G. lamblia is found throughout the world.

Every year many people return from camping trips to find that they are suffering from giardiasis, but the source of these infections remains uncertain. Some authorities believe that Giardia infects a number animals other than humans, particularly beavers, and that campers contract giardiasis from drinking stream water contaminated with cysts from beavers (hence, "beaver fever"). Other authorities, however, believe that these cases result from streams contaminated with human feces. Although mountain streams may appear to be "sparkling clean," some camper upstream may be using your drinking water as a toilet! Thus, no matter what it looks like, stream water should be treated before drinking. Boiling will kill Giardia cysts, and there are commercially available filters that will remove the cysts from water.


Washing hand thoroughly and drinking only potable, bottled or treated water should be sufficient!
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