Scotland vs Norway

[giantredwood]

I am no fan of the OF and Boyd is just throwing his toys out of the pram just like his Rangers (Loyal-what a joke) teammate McCulloch last time around. Having said that, his record speaks for itself, he is a goal scorer. He'll never be a Rooney or a Torres but he still knows where the back of the net is and thats his job and he does it very well. If Burley thinks he's not good enough to be playing for Scotland then WTF was he doing in the squad!!!

[Trapper]

Listen, I'm far from convinced with George Burley, but the biggest difference so far between him and his two predecessors comes down to one thing....LUCK! Smith and Mcliesh got flukey on a number of occasions and were praised to the hilt for thier tactical nous! Mcliesh played Mcfadden up front on his own in paris and was hailed a genius, yet all the papers and pundits have been saying since saturday is that Mcfadden can't play up front on his own!
Make up yer mind boys!
The other thing the've been slating burley for is taking so long to change things. I'm still waiting for walter smith to change the tactics in the game we lost at home to belarus, when it was obvious that it wasn't working after 5 mins! Mcliesh stuck with an unfamiliar formation in gergia for the majority of the match which ultimately cost us our place at euro 2008! They took very little criticism.
Plus all this pish about burley not having managed at the highest level, when did the S.P.L. become the highest level? As far as I can see Smith and Mcliesh had only ever had success at S.P.L. level before getting the scotland job (and don't anybody dare give me that rubbish about Smith having his hands tied at everton, he spent 35 million in his first 2 seasons! He was utter gash, ask any Evertonian).
Same goes for boyd, he's only ever scoree against pish! Who did he get his goals against for scoland? I know he got 2 or 3 against the faroes and another against georgia. They all count but come on!!
Iwelumo can't be written off after one game, he was the form striker in the squad at the time of the game and was the only one in the team who was going to get any joy against thier towring centre backs. So the decision to play him was right. What was wrong was to come out and comment on Boyd not getting a game. If Burley had kept his mouth shut it probably wouldn't have been a problem, However you don't turn your back on your national team unless it's for a genuine political or ideological reason. Not just cos you want an extra few weeks off a year to go on the piss wi yer mates back home. Which incidentally is [url]rumoured[/url] to be the reason Boyd cannae get a game for Rangers!
I've always said no player should be able to pick and choose when to play for his country, thats why Davie weir should never have been invited back!

And to clarify what I said about Darren Flethcer, when I said he had one of his better games I didnt mean he set the heather on fire. He was okay, thats it. He doesn't do it for scotland the way he should. He seems to suffer from the same thing as Barry and James, they think theyre the only players only the park for scotland and want to do everything thenselves!

[paulmcw]

Trapper, You seem to be comparing everything and everyone to the past. Thats not the point. I would never turn my back on scotland, but i can see exactly why boyd has told them to ram it! and as for never being allowed back... Well you have to be realistic about this. Scotland is certainly not in a position to close the door on our few top players. Questions should be asked to why him and mcculloch quit??? is Burley doing more harm than good?

It reminds me when Celtic got to the uefa cup final. A great team with great potential. But it was never built on and the chance to go further was gone!

My fear is, regardless if mangers past were lucky or not, the position of the team was strong and with heaps of potential. This will be lost due to the incompetence of a manager!!! and it will be back to the Berti days before you know it!

[Trapper]

That's nonsense man. Burley should be given to the end of the campaign or until it's mathematically impossible to qualify. As I have always said International management should be based on success, if you qualify you can keep your job, if you don't your sacked!
Are we all forgetting that Berti somehow managed to get us to within a game of the euros?

If you don't have the desire to play for your country under one manager you don't have the desire to play under any, simple.
David weir was an example I used because, contrary to what some people say he has been a liability since simth brought him back. In fact the myth that built up about us having a great defense over the past few years is just that. The defensive displays against france and the like were all about the defensive qualities of our midfield and nothing to do with our defenders! They didn't have to defend cos our midfielders were taking care of that.
The team Burley put out on saturday wasn't far away from what most folk were looking for before the game but it was a mistake and never looked like working.
I really am not trying to defend Burley as I'm becoming more and more convinced he's not the man for the job, but I don't think he's any worse than the last 2,3,4, managers we've had!

Sayin that I think his press conference was good today!

[FACEMAN]

With 10 minutes left and still one sub left to use and we were basically needing a win .I think that was the cue to send boyd on and let him do what he does best.From the start we had no real shape up front with two men running into the channels and another posted missing we were never going to find a goal.When the formation was changed to the two strikers it did work better with more chances.It also seemed as if barry robson could not get any momentum going as he was getting switched position from side to side throughout the game ? Surely if it does nt work the first time then you try some thing else.Tactically burley got it all wrong. Boyd will be back for scotland soon enough as unless burley sorts out his tactics then he will not last.If boyds dropped due to his boozing then surely he and burley could sort out there differences over a few beers

[SPANNERMAN2]

as a scotland /man utd fan (no comments please) i thought darren fletcher was very poor on saturday and prob should have been subbed >captain or not!!!instead of mcfadden who can produce a bit of magic at any time in a game =yet again fletcher did not produce the goods for scotland
yes burley started with wrong formation >miss or no miss big chris iwelumo should have started if we were going to play the long high ball game as he won most headers against norways no5 but f***** he** that was some miss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
scotland can still qualify prob as runners up but remember even 2nd might not be good enough as its only 8out of9 runners up that go into the play offs >we need a few wins and soon !!!!!!!!!!!!
as for kris boyd >mcleish ,walter smith and now burley dont/didnt play him regularly from the start =perhaps he should look at himself first before jacking it in >what happens IF we qualify will he be on the plane to south africa after saying sorry ???????
cmon the scotland

[A Horse called Juan Face]

I think some people need to go and look up the meaning of the word established. If Boyd is established in the Rangers team then why is he sitting on the bench nearly every week? Just because he HAS scored so many goals in the past doesn't make him established NOW. Burley was correct in his statement that Boyd is not playing regularly for Rangers, so why should he expect to be playing for Scotland? Players may have been playing for Scotland that weren't regulars at their club under Smith and McLeish but Burley wants to do things differently so what happened before has no real relevance. Boyd hasn't quit Rangers though, I wonder if that's because they pay him money to go on the piss? I also heard he's a bit of a fan of my Columbian mate Juan's secretions. I also reckon the vast majority of people getting on Iwelumo's back have seen him play about 30 minutes of football. OK, it was a shocking miss, but he didn't do it on purpose. As for Hitman's point about the leagues where Fletcher and Iwelumo are playing? I'm pretty sure Boyd only plays in the SPL too, unless I missed his big transfer to Harchester?

As for the game itself, I can't remember it very well, I was rather innebriated. I saw about as much as the Norwegian girls did though, they were busy looking at the crowd thinking, "who's that guy that looks like Colin Farrell?"

[Ranald]

I think some people need to go and look up the meaning of the word established. If Boyd is established in the Rangers team then why is he sitting on the bench nearly every week? Just because he HAS scored so many goals in the past doesn't make him established NOW. Burley was correct in his statement that Boyd is not playing regularly for Rangers, so why should he expect to be playing for Scotland? Players may have been playing for Scotland that weren't regulars at their club under Smith and McLeish but Burley wants to do things differently so what happened before has no real relevance. Boyd hasn't quit Rangers though, I wonder if that's because they pay him money to go on the piss? I also heard he's a bit of a fan of my Columbian mate Juan's secretions. I also reckon the vast majority of people getting on Iwelumo's back have seen him play about 30 minutes of football. OK, it was a shocking miss, but he didn't do it on purpose. As for Hitman's point about the leagues where Fletcher and Iwelumo are playing? I'm pretty sure Boyd only plays in the SPL too, unless I missed his big transfer to Harchester?

I agree entirely. Here's a good article from Sporting Life about Boyd:

BOYD DECISION SUMS UP ATTITUDE
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By Gareth Friel

George Burley has endured a torrid 10 months since taking over as Scotland boss from Alex McLeish in January.

Three friendly games without a win - against Croatia, Czech Republic and Northern Ireland - were followed by a 1-0 defeat to Macedonia in Scotland's opening World Cup qualifier.

And although that was followed four days later by a 2-1 win in Iceland, Saturday's 0-0 draw at home to Norway means it is extremely unlikely the Tartan Army will be making the long journey to South Africa in 2010.

The former Hearts and Southampton boss has been unlucky in many ways with injuries and suspensions - Stephen McManus, Alan Hutton, Barry Ferguson and Kenny Miller were all missing from the side which faced Norway.

And had Chris Iwelumo put away that chance on his international debut at Hampden we may have been hailing a masterstroke by Burley.

But such are the margins between success and failure at the top level that many are calling for his head after just three competitive games in charge.

And although the initial media reaction to Kris Boyd's refusal to play under him again will add to his woes in the short term, in the long run it won't unduly bother him.

Had I been in Burley's position on Saturday, I would have brought on Boyd before either Iwelumo or Steven Fletcher, in fact I'd have started with a 4-4-2 formation and would certainly not have played James McFadden as a lone striker, but that's another debate.

However, the reasons for Burley deciding to bring on Iwelumo and Fletcher ahead of the Rangers striker are easy to understand.

Both players can control, pass, hold the ball up and do all the basics better than Boyd, who is a fantastic goalscorer but has almost nothing else to his game.

Arguments rage on a weekly basis between Rangers fans - 'should Boyd play given that all he does is score goals?'...'Yes, goals are what win games'.

But when the goals dry up, as they have done recently, Boyd offers almost nothing.

He has scored only twice in open play in the SPL since the beginning of March and on that sort of form could possibly be regarded as lucky to have even made Burley's squad for Norway.

Iwelumo has eight goals this season for Wolves while Fletcher has impressed time and time again for the Under-21s so it's easy to see Burley's thinking.

So for Boyd to publically declare he will never play for Scotland under Burley again should mean he is never considered for the national team ever again regardless of who is boss.
After all Burley is only following every manager Boyd has had since leaving Kilmarnock. McLeish, Paul Le Guen and Walter Smith, whether at club or international level, have not trusted Boyd in the big games.

Under McLeish, the man who signed him for Rangers, Boyd netted seven goals in his first six games before being benched for home games against Celtic and Villarreal in the Champions League last-16 first leg.

And despite two goals in his next two league games he was again left out of the starting XI for the away leg in Spain.

Le Guen, despite the various media reports that he was unhappy with Boyd, actually started him in more 'big' games than not but did suggest on a number of occasions that the striker had to buck up his ideas if he was to star at the focal point of his 4-3-3 formation.

Under Smith, it has got worse for Boyd.

Last season, the 25-year-old was an unused substitue in 13 of Rangers' 17 European matches and didn't even take to the field in any of the four Old Firm meetings - a damning indictment.

But the argument goes that Rangers can afford to start with Boyd in SPL games against anyone but Celtic as he is almost guaranteed to get goals.

Even that's not quite true - Boyd has started just five away SPL games in over a year and Smith seems to be of the view that Boyd is a luxury he can only afford at Ibrox as long as the oppostion are not European or Celtic. The frustrating thing is Boyd still has an amazing goalscoring record.

He has seven goals in 15 caps for Scotland - James McFadden has 13 in 41 - and his average at club level of around one in two means he is the second-highest scorer since the SPL began in 1998-99, only behind Henrik Larsson.

That is why Rangers and Scotland fans become so infuriated over the issue.

Boyd is blessed with an incredible ability to be in the right place in the right time and has a natural prowess to put the ball in the back of the net that many top strikers in European football would be envious of.

But he appears to have shown almost no desire to improve his all-round game which could potentially turn him into a superstar.

Not one part of his game has developed since moving to Ibrox. His link-up play is still poor, he tends to give free-kicks away in any aerial challenge outside the box, he continually gifts the ball back to the opposition and more often than not looks unfit.

What a hard-working, intelligent forward like Kenny Miller or Dirk Kuyt would give for a fraction of Boyd's ability in front of goal.

At the age of 25, Boyd looks like he will waste what could be an outstanding career. It's no exaggerration to say if he really wanted to he could become one of the best strikers Scotland has ever produced.

Hard work and a willingness to learn could see him become a record scorer for both club and country and he doesn't even need to look far for inspiration.

His club team-mate Kirk Broadfoot was brought to Rangers from St Mirren in the summer of 2007 as a back-up centre-half but due to the sale of Alan Hutton was pitched in at right-back for much of the second half of last season.

Despite a shaky start, Broadfoot has gone on to start a UEFA Cup final, won two caps for Scotland and has become almost a cult-hero to fans who doubted him, much of it down to extra training sessions at Murray Park.

If Broadfoot can make the most of his ability in an unnatural position, surely Boyd can improve himself and become a decent all-round striker?

It seems he's not interested in doing so. It may have only been a fun interview on Soccer AM but it was telling to see Darren Fletcher describe Boyd as Scotland's worst trainer.

Since moving to Rangers, Boyd's game has not improved in any significant way and now instead of responding to being snubbed by Burley by knuckling down, scoring goals week in, week out and ensuring he cannot be overlooked next time, he's taken the easy, lazy way out.

When the much-ridiculed Filip Sebo started at Celtic Park in front of him or when Lee McCulloch, a midfielder, was preferred for the central striking role in last season's CIS Cup semi-final against Hearts, did Boyd throw the toys out of the pram and question Smith's judgement in public?

Of course he didn't because he knows he would be chased all way back to Ayrshire by the Rangers fans, not to mention Smith himself.

Sadly this decision just about sums up a player who will surely go down in history as another in the long line of Scottish players who failed to make the mostof his ability.

And he will only have himself to blame.

Every day of the week he trains alongside a man he has often been compared to in Ally McCoist. If Rangers' all-time goalscorer can't convince Boyd to get his act together, no-one will.

So while the media attention surrounding the 'retirement' may lead to a few uncomfortable days for Burley, Boyd's absence from the rest of the World Cup qualifying campaign will have no bearing on Scotland's fate.

[paulmcw]

That report pretty much sums up the waster that is Kris Boyd! So much potential, not so little brain!

Problem i have is this. International differs from club football, alot. It is possibly the correct thing (i think anyway) for a manager to come in and build a team for the future. Get rid of the wasters (Boyd) and bring the young and keen for the future (fletcher) and with the club managers probable 3/5yr contract, you take the good times with the bad! hence why fat, cheating Jimmy up at Aberdeen has got away with it for so long!

However when you have only 8 (EIGHT) games to be successful + a couple of friendlies you must always play your strongest hand! 0-0 against Norway on sat, an extremely important game. Its not time to field the boy to see what he can do. Its time for the ,,,well anybody, regardless of anything to get the job done!!!

Burley is wanting to make a name for himself (taken faddy off and snubbing boyd) and his press conference shows exactly what i though,,, he's out of his depth!

I hope fletcher plays 90min against Argentina. An Internationl friendly is his place!

[A Horse called Juan Face]

I am no fan of the OF and Boyd is just throwing his toys out of the pram just like his Rangers (Loyal-what a joke) teammate McCulloch last time around. Having said that, his record speaks for itself, he is a goal scorer. He'll never be a Rooney or a Torres but he still knows where the back of the net is and thats his job and he does it very well. If Burley thinks he's not good enough to be playing for Scotland then WTF was he doing in the squad!!!

From what Burley has said, he didn't look hungry in training. It would be a bit of a kick in the teeth to the boy to demote him from the squad without him being injured. He doesn't look hungry at all, except for burgers. He seems far too happy to sit on the bench at Rangers. I personally can't understand why he didn't leave in the summer. The other point I meant to make yesterday was that everyone was saying Boyd would have scored that chance, but would he have been able to wiggle his fat arse into position to get it?

This is a good article on it too.
http://www.theherald.co.uk/sport/headli ... vement.php

Just to sum it all up, I remember one time playing in a team coached by Davie Brodie. The striker for that team scored a cracker of a goal, and he said to Davie did you see my goal, and Davie turned round and said, aye, but I also saw all the ones you missed. That's exactly the sort of attitude that Boyd should have, to concentrate on what he does poorly than what he does well. He's a waster, pure and simple, just like PS said.

[A Horse called Juan Face]

surely he and burley could sort out there differences over a few beers

Is Burley not more of a hauf man?

[The Hitman]

As for Hitman's point about the leagues where Fletcher and Iwelumo are playing? I'm pretty sure Boyd only plays in the SPL too, unless I missed his big transfer to Harchester?

Horse,

I think if you would take time to read the post correctly, you would have understood the point I was making, and acknowledged it rather than being facetious.

I shall reiterate the point I was making.

Fletcher and Iwelemo have only been proven to be successful at club level in their respective leagues.
Boyd has scored goals at domestic, european and international level, hence the reason I believe Boyd should have been selected to come on, when the need for a goal was so vital.

In addition to this, Boyd has turned up for loads of Scotland games, scored on average a goal every two games yet is mostly overlooked (even under McLeish & Smith), which he never moaned or groaned about (until now). However, when the team that so desperately needed a man on the pitch who could put the ball in the net with most proficiency, Burley overlooked him for two rookies who have never scored at full international level, and had one cap between them. - A mistake that was so evident with the Iwelemo miss.

I trust that should clear the whole league issue up Horse.

[A Horse called Juan Face]

I wasn't being facetious, I just flat out don't agree, and the issue isn't even clouded. The teams Boyd has scored against in these games are no better than Championship level anyway. Look at the actual facts, they don't lie. He does not start big games for Rangers. He hardly scores against Celtic. No manager will play him in a game where they need to win. Are all these managers wrong, or are you wrong? I agree that he scores goals, but can Scotland afford an absolute passenger for the other 89 minutes of the game. Also, you can't cast aspersions on Iwelumo's ability just because of that miss. He couldn't do that again if he tried. I also seem to remember Boyd missing a sitter against Georgia at home, which is conveniently forgotten about seeing as we ended up winning that game. He's clearly off form as well, he has only two goals in open play in the SPL since March. One goal against Partick does not an international striker make. As the article I gave a link to attests, he has failed to gain a regular spot (ie establish himself) under four different managers. Are they all wrong? Personally I think he probably should have been brought on, but I think he has a poor attitude as well. Like I said, he looks at what he does well, rather than trying to improve what he does poorly. Scotland fans have been moaning for years that players that aren't playing regularly for their clubs are getting games in internationals and now Burley is trying to rectify that, the fans are still moaning. I honestly can't see how you can back Boyd, but the difference between me and you is I don't support Rangers. And because of that nothing I say will change your mind, and vice versa. Romario managed to get away with not training properly but he was a smidgen better than Boyd. Managers judge players on training, Boyd obviously didn't look up for it. We can't judge Burley's decision the way we are, because we were not privy to the training sessions.

International goals for Boyd.
Two goals in the Kirin Cup, friendly. Chris Burke got two in this game as well. Says it all really. Two against Faroes, cake.
One at home to Georgia, good goal followed by a missed sitter later. One each against South Africa and Lithuania. I honestly can't see the Dutch worried about him, or being happy that he's not there.

PS I also am unsure of Burley, but how is Steven Fletcher supposed to gain experience if you don't put him on? I mean, Scotland can't afford to lose any game really, so by that logic he is supposed to sit on 1 cap forever? That's not aimed at you Hitman, just a lot of other Scotland fans in general. Burley really is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

[The Hitman]

Ok you have now lost me, when did I mention Rangers? I don't recall. I also don't recall me saying Boyd should get 90 mins, my whole point is that Boyd has served his time with Scotland, proved he can score at international level, and yet Burley - left the best goalscorer on the bench when the team needed a goal.

I think Boyd is as lazy as everyone else and doesn't merit a start in the big games as his overall play isn't good enough. However he is a finisher and in my opinion Burley made his second mistake of the day (foramtion being his first).

Boyd has that uncanny knack of being in the right place at the right time and is the most prolific scorer Scotland has produced since Ally McCoist. I just don't think the was given a fair crack of the whip in the Scotland team.

If Burley is not going to play him, when the game is set for him to come off the bench and get the goal we so desperately needed, then when is he going to play him and why bring him into the squad???? I think Boyd will have thought something along those lines.

However Burley is the manager and he will be judged by his decisions, I believe he has not covered himself in glory in his first games as manager. 1 win in 7 attempts? 2 players walking out, wrong formations, poor game analysis......

My opinion entirely and I can't see Burley being there in 12 months....... Que Sera sera....

We have a dream............ that may turn into a nightmare.

[A Horse called Juan Face]

I don't see what's hard to follow? I didn't say you did mention Rangers. I mentioned them, for the simple fact that most of the people backing Boyd tend to be Rangers supporters. As I said, my points aren't directed all at you, more so in general.

The other thing is, look at the list of teams Boyd has scored against. Does that really constitute being a proven international goalscorer? I don't think so.

As for why Burley called him into the squad if he wasn't going to play him? I already said this but it's fairly obvious that he didn't call him up just to leave him on the bench. He calls up 20+ players. He can't play them all, so he has to assess them in training. Boyd obviously made Burley's decision for him. Exactly the same thing happened with Russell Anderson for years. The best defender in the SPL week in, week out and didn't get on the bench for Scotland. The only reason there is such a clamour about this is (A) strikers get more media attention, and rightly so, and (B) Boyd plays for one of the Old Firm. Also, Russell wasn't a big poof about it. He didn't quit.

Oh, I'd also say that the Rangers fans, or other fans as the case may be, that are backing Boyd are entirely right to do so as well. Natural goalscorers are increasingly rare and he is one. He's just TOO lazy. I'm not saying he should be Wayne Rooney and race back giving away silly penalties, but he should be able to run off the ball. As I said I personally would have put him on, but I wouldn't necessarily say Burley was wrong to leave him off, because I don't know how Boyd fared in the training sessions. A lot of people backing Boyd seem to think that what happens in training doesn't matter, but I don't agree with that. Training is about implementing tactics as well as keeping up fitness and if Boyd shows no interest then why should Burley play him instead of someone who comes in and gives 100% like Iwelumo and Fletcher most likely did? People say look at it from Boyd's point of view, but if I was Iwelumo and I didn't get on, I'd think why the hell is that lazy bastard getting on ahead of me? Works both ways, as always.