The Future of Scottish Football

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The Future of Scottish Football

Postby Hume » Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:22 pm

i think hearts will be doing well just to be in business in 2/3 years time never mind winning any titles! i wonder if the bill for the broken door at pittodrie on saturday will get paid?

I didnt see the OF game but by the sounds of it, it was pretty poor, but that must be the rest of the teams holding them back :wink:

Realistically, where does everyone see scottish football in 5 years i.e. a non OF winner like Ninja and Abbey Craig have hinted at, an expanded league, an OF-less league ??

It seems to me that crowds are down in general at most clubs as people decide to spend their saturday doing something else. That is very worrying I think. How can we get folk to come back to the football ? Reduced price offers often result in an incresed crown but it is not sustainable and when prices go back up the fans that were tempted along simply drift away again.

I suppose its all to do with the quality of the football on show and if folk are saying the OF game was between two poor sides it doesnt say much about the league.
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Re: VERY SILENT HOOPS

Postby blueboyno1 » Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:50 pm

What the SPL needs is for a lesser team to win it for a change, then i think the quality of football will change in the old firm.
Both sets of players get paid fortunes even if they are on the injury list ,good work if you can get it .There is just not enough committment among the old firm players ,other players have to work harder for their place in the team .If every player was getting paid the same money with a bonus based on results at the end you would see good football. Cant see it changing in the near future .I dont think the fewer crowds are anything to do with the football ,a on both sides you have the die hards who would follow them anywhere .I think it is because of the state of the economy just now people just dont have the money .For me to travel to Ibrox from where i stay ,cost of travel ,ticket ,few swallies and my lunch ,i dont get much change out of £100.
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Re: VERY SILENT HOOPS

Postby paulmcw » Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:56 pm

I think now is the time for the complete revamp of Scottish football. If you were to address this situation like hume is saying you really need to start at the beginning.

1) The structure of Scottish football:
SPL,SFA, Semi pro different from junior,different from highland league and all different from Senior- no use. The pyramid system, successfull in Enland must be implemented here. If theres potential for greater success then it will add more enthusiasm to the supporters/investors of the wee teams.

With the pyramid system in place and with entry to the pro ranks earned then it just might make teams like East Stirlingshire etc stop being complacent and sitting on their pro status! To decide out of the other ranks who will make it into the pro leagues there should be a play-off. East Junior, West Junior, highland league, and East Coast leage? (spartans etc) 2 simi finals then the final. Thousands would turn up. (they do already!) From this they would enter into the bottom of 3 leagues. There should be at least 16 teams in each with teams playing against each other twice. - Celtic v rangers even bores me now! The only reason we play 4 times is so there are 4 pay days for the fat cats of the SPL!

2)The 3 foreigners rule:
It must be implemented to give young Scots a chance. Foreigners are simply killing our game, 2nd, 3rd 4th (i've got long hair rate) players simply fill the spaces that would normally be filled by a young scot.And thats simply where all the money goes to!! Gone are the day when quality like Larsson will come to scotland.
Believe me supporters are more willing to pay to watch enthusastic young Scots giving it their all rather than lazy overpaid foreigners. The money they get paid and for what they produce coupled with their respective clubs silverware really is bad business! and its not just Celtic and Rangers who are at fault here. The thing about it being a Celtic fan, this will not help our European prospects short term, but long term? not to mention the national team! :D
If the players fail to come, then it falls to the coaches, and i'm not opposed to a foreign coach!!

Pick the bones out that one! :D
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Re: VERY SILENT HOOPS

Postby A Horse called Juan Face » Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:45 am

blueboyno1 wrote: .I dont think the fewer crowds are anything to do with the football ,a on both sides you have the die hards who would follow them anywhere .I think it is because of the state of the economy just now people just dont have the money .For me to travel to Ibrox from where i stay ,cost of travel ,ticket ,few swallies and my lunch ,i dont get much change out of £100.


Hume was on about crowds in the whole league. Typical Old Firm fan.
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Re: VERY SILENT HOOPS

Postby Ranald » Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:59 pm

paulmcw wrote: The only reason we play 4 times is so there are 4 pay days for the fat cats of the SPL!


You do realise that the Old Firm ARE the fat cats of the SPL don't you? And that the whole set-up is designed to keep the money rolling in for them?

Scottish football's tea is oot. It's been allowed to get to the stage where it's impossible for any other club to challenge the Old Firm consistently. The only way it could happen now would be for an Abramovich type to come in but the SPL isn't attractive enough to someone like that. Even if someone was stupid enough to do it, the situation wouldn't exactly be sustainable once the billionaire got bored. With that kind of situation it's no wonder that crowds are down as the whole "competition" is pointless. Who's really all that interested in shelling out upwards of 20 quid a game just to see their team trying to finish third?

It'll never happen but an NFL-style franchise system with all income being pooled and divided equally between the clubs, with a draft system of promising young players, is the only way domestic football in Scotland has any hope of ever being competitive again. Trapper's been on about this for years and I've come round to his way of thinking over the last year or so.
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Re: The Future of Scottish Football

Postby Bertie » Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:33 pm

[quote="Ranald"]
It'll never happen but an NFL-style franchise system with all income being pooled and divided equally between the clubs, with a draft system of promising young players, is the only way domestic football in Scotland has any hope of ever being competitive again. Trapper's been on about this for years and I've come round to his way of thinking over the last year or so.


That seems very fair!! So the average gate of Aberdeen (currently 11913), Hibs (11852) or Kilmarnock (5023) gets exactly the same share of revenue generated over the season as Celtic, with an avearge gate of 50930 or Rangers with 45099? They may well be seen as the "Fat cats" but it's for a reason. They regularly fill their respective grounds to 85% of capacity. Kilmarnock are barely managing 25% and even Aberdeen struggle to make it over the 50% mark.

I suggest you start trying to fill your grounds before coming on and bleating about a fairer distribution of the income.
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Re: The Future of Scottish Football

Postby paulmcw » Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:03 pm

Ranald you've got to be kidding with that one! The only reason why Celtic and Rangers have their strangle hold over scottish football is bescause they do more for their fans! Do you believe Aberdeen etc make themselves an attractive option for the punter who might be willing to go? I've been to Parkhead (obviously), Ibrox and Pittodrie and EasterRoad. The old firm invest more in their fans than any other team, percentage wise and make their games an occasion to look forward to,and thats every game. ! And not only that if the old firm don't come up with the goods then fans want something done, quick! They pay their money and have every right! and they usually get they're way.

So what your saying is. You don't want to invest in the fans. Just stick with same old manager/team etc, blame it on the lack of money, (you any idea how much money the Aberdeen chairman has? Blame it on the old firm. Watch the old firm invest in their club. See their rewards,,,, then take a cut! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: The Future of Scottish Football

Postby Ranald » Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:22 pm

The one, single, sole, solitary reason Celtic and Rangers fill their grounds is relative success. A decade of mediocrity and we'd soon see how the attendances turn out. I don't have the stats to hand but I believe a look at Ibrox in the early 80s may well back me up.

And Paul, how the hell does a club "invest" in its fans? What do the Old Firm do for their fans that any other club doesn't? You've lost me with that one. Unless you mean pandering to the bigots with "tangerine" tops and the like but that's a whole different argument and an option that, thankfully, isn't even open to the other clubs.
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Re: The Future of Scottish Football

Postby Sheik Yir Erse » Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:16 pm

K before this descends into a Old Firm v's the rest of Scottish football arguement, lets try and be not too partisan about the whole thing.

My take on it is that you'll find exactly the same conversation taking place on forums in Denmark, Sweden, Portugal, Netherlands (WTA?), Belgium, Greece, Switzerland, etc. where these leagues are all generally dominated by 2-3 teams. We're all in the same boat with regards to declining quality, gates, and being able to compete with "the big 5" leagues.

It's interesting that there is some polarisation on here, i.e. it's all the Old Firms fault or it's not the Old Firm's fault it's everyone else's fault.

Ranald wrote:It'll never happen but an NFL-style franchise system with all income being pooled and divided equally between the clubs, with a draft system of promising young players, is the only way domestic football in Scotland has any hope of ever being competitive again. Trapper's been on about this for years and I've come round to his way of thinking over the last year or so.


Your right Ranald it'll never happen, there are a number of reasons for this. The US has an incredible academy system through their College network to churn out the 'wonderkids', we don't have that. Also bear in mind there is no relegation in the NFL, and how would you cope with Stewart Milne moving "Aberdeen" lock, stock and barrel to Livingston? Or Celtic to Dublin :wink: ? On the face of it the NFL looks like an ideal model, but it's the absolute pinnacle of US sport and the money on offer makes Frank Lampard look like he's on minimum wage. The NFL can really only be compared to the Champions League in my mind. Much as some may not like it, no one club has dominated it the way it used to happen in the 70's and 80's. So with that in mind perhaps maybe other teams become feeder teams to an enlarged Champions League setup?

Maybe there are feeder teams within the Scottish League for the SPL. A Celtic or Rangers reserve side playing in Div 1 (SPL2?) which cannot get promoted or play in Cup games? There's maybe room for 12 professional sides and 12 semi-professional.

The main thing holding the game back in Scotland is the parochialism that we need to retain our current ridiculous number of senior clubs. Perhaps a top tier of 12 clubs made up of the 2 Old Firm, 1 Renfrew Team (St Mirren, Morton) 1 Ayrshire Team, 1 Dundee Team, 1 Borders team, 1 Lanarkshire Team, 1 other Glasgow team, and maybe at a push 1 Inverness team (the Dons could be a feeder team for them :wink: ) Maybe 2 from Edinburgh, and 1 from Fife. There's your franchise setup? The Stenhousemuirs can continue to play with attendances of 284 if they want, but not under the auspices of the SFL/SPL/SFA, etc. Shared academies / training facilities would also bring huge benefits and cost savings. People would however have to give up their 120 years of history, and amalgamate with their local rivals. It would be revolutionary, but the Inverness sides managed it. Maybe that would be the blueprint for other countries to follow? And before anyone accuses me of double standards I would gladly have Celtic merge with Rangers if it meant that Glasgow Utd would win the Champions League :shock: (beating the Inverness Dons in the Final) :wink:

Bring back a 4 week winter shutdown, but have the Scottish based national team players attend a 3-week long training camp, instead of flying off to Spain for a week with Borders Utd.

Right - a'm away tae git blootered!
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Re: The Future of Scottish Football

Postby A Horse called Juan Face » Fri Jan 02, 2009 3:43 am

Bertie wrote:I suggest you start trying to fill your grounds before coming on and bleating about a fairer distribution of the income.


If the Old Firm want to take all the money, then they shouldn't be going on about playing in an inferior league. You have to give to get. That's just common economic sense, which I notice isn't really at a premium in the world at the moment.

Sheik, I think you were blootered when you wrote that post. No one said we had to make the model exactly like the NFL. :lol:
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Re: The Future of Scottish Football

Postby Sheik Yir Erse » Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:20 am

Horse - I think you're probably right - I was half blootered at least, what a complete load of pash it was.
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Re: The Future of Scottish Football

Postby A Horse called Juan Face » Fri Jan 02, 2009 4:35 pm

Sheik Yir Erse wrote:Horse - I think you're probably right - I was half blootered at least, what a complete load of pash it was.


Hahahah Your honesty is my friend. Along with all those randoms.
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Re: The Future of Scottish Football

Postby Bertie » Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:36 pm

"A Horse called Juan Face wrote:
If the Old Firm want to take all the money, then they shouldn't be going on about playing in an inferior league. You have to give to get. That's just common economic sense, which I notice isn't really at a premium in the world at the moment.

Horse, I totally agree. However the original response was about the other clubs getting an equal share. As SPL clubs keep their home gates surely, if more of their supporters were attending, it generates more money for their own club. The OF can only play in the league that is available to them so whether they see it as inferior or not is neither here nor there.
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Re: The Future of Scottish Football

Postby Hume » Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:11 am

to have a go at answering my own question, I cannot ever see a non OF winner of the SPL in its current state full stop. Its been 24 long year since it happenend and 10 years since there was a genuine challenge, the year Hearts did well with Jim Jeffries and eventually won he cup - might have been different had Burley stayed a few years back. This is not going to change any time soon.

So, is that reason enough to skake things up? I don't necesserily believe the reason for change is to get a non OF winner - if things are changed Rangers and Celtic are not suddenly going to become weaker in relative terms, but it might result in a more competetive league. However, we MUST do something to save football in this country pretty soon or even some of our top clubs are going to die. We need to attract fans back and it is clear that too many have been lost due to the boredom of the current set up.

Before going on, I'll say I completely disagree with an even distribution of revenue - those that generate the biggest gates should get the biggest slice of the pie.

So, I would like to see an 18 team top league, with 34 games and NO! splits in the table. The long wheeled arguments about the gulf in class between the SPL and the 1st Division are nonsense - there have been numerous examples of teams from lower down beating SPL teams recently and barring Gretna the team that comes up normally does well in the SPL. Falkirk, St Mirren and even Hamilton :evil: have done well and I'm sure St Johnstone will do the same if its them who come up next.

Aside from the obvious immediate interest such a change would generate I think crowds would go back up for the long term. Use Hibs as an example, I might be wrong here, but didn't they have higher gates in the 1st Div simply because they were winning most weeks and loking to win the title? That effect could be witnessed by say Hibs, Hearts, Dundee Utd and Aberdeen if come February they are only 6 or 7 points off the top compared to the usual 20 or 25.

Some might point to the fact that two less games against the OF could mean lost revenue for some club. I cannot comment for every team but in Aberdeen's case a Rangers or Celtic game at Pittodrie attract say 8,000 more than Motherwell or Falkirk. Two less of those means we would need an extra 1,000 or so on each gate to compensate - no problem if we freshen things up! About 15 years ago the average at Pittodrie was a good 4,000 higher at around 15,000. Getting those 4,000 back 15 times a season is worth WAY more than a couple of extra games against Rangers and Celtic.

Would Falkirk v Dundee or QoS really attract less than Falkirk v St Mirren? I don't think so, so let another 6 clubs in and lets get the heart of football in this country pumping again.

As I've said before, this is not based on giving others a better change of winning the league - its about SAVING the league. If it results in someone else (anyone!) winning the league all the better.

Finally, Paul - about 10 year ago, maybe a bit less I would have agreed with the foreigner argument but look around the 'other 10' clubs and you'll see plenty of Scots. The OF are too obsessed with staying ahead of eachother to play scots (which I understand) but everyone else is, partly because they have been left with no alternative. We had nine starting on saturday and it has regularly been more over the last few years.
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Re: The Future of Scottish Football

Postby TYM » Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:34 pm

I too think that the League is on a downward spiral but I do not believe that it would be any better without the OF. The media coverage would still go with them no matter where they go and I see no great merit in winning a league that would only be the "best of the rest". Anyway, the best days in football are when your team manages to beat one of the OF, rare though it may be.

I have never seen the standard of football as poor as it currently is. Gone are the days when Scottish Football can attract the likes of a Laudrup, Gascoigne, Sauzee and Gilhaus. Even if another Larsson or Moravic was discovered then they would now be quickly sold on. Scottish football can no longer afford the size of wage needed to attract the best foreign players. As for the home based players, then I believe that this will not improve unless our players practice their skills more and also change their lifestyles. John Collins tried it, and failed because of the resistance he encountered.

There is no doubt that the public are becoming bored with the current product on the pitch. Playing the same teams 3 or 4 times a season does not help, nor does the fact that the OF are out of sight by the end of September. Yes it would be nice to have another team up there challenging. It is not impossible but it became much more difficult when 3 points for a win was introduced ( for the right reasons ), as the OF always win more games. Much depends on the ability of the Manager and I think Dundee United could at least challenge for 2nd if they can hold on to Levein. I doubt if increasing the size of the League would help as I am old enough to remember the bigger league and there were too many meaningless mid-table games. At least the SPL, for all it's faults, does usually have games that mean something.

It is true that watching a winning team does help in the short term. Hibs' crowds did go up in the First Division but also much of that was to do with the style of football that McLeish introduced, then continued and improved by Mowbray and Collins. Now crowds are falling away as the style changes under Paatelainen. I suspect Aberdeen have suffered in the same manner. However, if the figures here http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn.htm are to be believed, then the SPL is doing not too badly although the loss of Gretna will have helped. Interestingly, a comparison of the main footballing countries shows that the crowds are falling all over with the exception of Germany and Italy. These countries are well known for being able to watch more reasonably priced football. However, if you think we have problems, then have a look at Sweden.

The pricing issue is the biggest problem which Scottish football faces. It is no longer value for money at the top level. Hibs are struggling to sell cup tickets for a Scottish Cup tie against Hearts and if Celtic get more than 20,000 for their match with Dundee then I will be surprised. With finances being so tight, £25 or £27 is difficult to justify plus all the extras such as food, travel, programme etc. Come the renewal of Season Tickets for next season then I think that is when clubs will start to feel the pinch.

One thing that I feel would help would be less football on television. It is now too easy to watch a game live or extended highlights. Perhaps TV money is too good to turn down but I believe it is becoming a problem in itself. With reduced crowds comes a reduced atmosphere which in turn makes it less of a spectacle for television. It would also not surprise me if some of the TV deals became difficult to honour in the months to come.

I sincerely hope that all Clubs ( even Hearts ) survive the coming squeeze on football finances. My fear is that it is going to get much worse before it gets better. Teams are going to have to cut their costs to survive. That means wages so I do not see the product being improved in the short-term, even with some form of League reconstruction.
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