Independence

[baz]

Oh Bazzy baby, I love you dearly, your spoutings have been a source of much merriment. You have even reminded me of Billy Connelly (sorry Billy), I think it was on the Raw Meat For The Balcony album, Billy is dealing with a heckler and comes out with immortal line...."I don't suppose by any chance your mouth bleeds every 28 days ?"
That's me done, I'm going. Sorry. See you soon. Toodle pip.

You may want to edit this post.
As I am sure the compliment was unintentional

[Hume]

Martin, thank you, you have raised many pertinent points. I hope they will be answered in the straight-forward and succinct way in which you presented yours.

A few comments on this thread have surprised me, Govangirl but perhaps none more than yours above that Martin has some great points. It reads like a UKIP and Project Fear joint press release to me. Border guards, we don't know how good we've got it etc.

I'm interested to hear you say some arguments are winning you over. Obviously I don't know you but I reckon you would be one of the many traditional Labour supporters getting behind a Yes vote if you were living here and able to do so. Your home city is going to be a big Yes in September!

I'm sorry you feel you are not getting answers to your questions. A lot has been posted since I last commented on anything but you still seem to be focussed on the currency and EU membership.

Does anyone seriously believe Scotland would not become an EU member following independence? I know the No campaign like to make it sound impossible but I think people can see through what is simply political campaigning. On the other hand, Yes Scotland probably makes is sound too simple. We will need to negotiate our way in but we are already aligned with EU rules having been a participant for 40 odd years. It would probably be more difficult for members the EU who trade with us not to have Scotland as a member.

Same applies to the currency debate. Osborne, Balls etc. are politicians campaigning for a No vote - of course they are going to say there will be no currency sharing agreement. They are just hoping they are never in the position of having to back down. An independent Scotland not using Sterling would be disastrous for all those still using it and the economic reality of that will result in a currency union being agreed.

The cries will then be that we are not independent as another country sets our interest rates or we have no control over monetary policy. Firstly, that's no different to the situation at present so those who make that point are basically saying the current set up does not work for us and secondly, is France not independent on the basis its interest rate is set in Frankfurt?

I read a fair bit of stuff on this issue and some of it is truly inspiring. Notably, a lot of inspiring stuff comes from people who are not involved in politics but naturally the main media outlets only focus on the official campaigns and political parties. The debate is much wider than that and in many instances far more advanced.

I'm not saying I can answer or even direct you to an answer for everything you are looking for but I would love you try to step away from some of the perceived big issues and focus on the chance we have here to take our country in a different direction to the one that the UK is going at the moment, generally speaking against Scotland's will.

I know you feel devolution gives Scotland valuable control over certain areas. It does, but we are still at the mercy of policies that we do not vote for and that is not democratic in my view. Spending on the areas we control is limited to what we receive as a block grant, which is itself linked to the amount Westminster spends on these areas in England and Wales. So, in short, if Westminster cuts spending on Education, our block grant is reduced accordingly.

Then there are the areas of spending that are 'Barnett exempt', which we pay our share of but see absolutely no benefit at all. Much of this general spending is in the South i.e. London sewer system upgrades and cross-rail, then there is HS2, where there is evidence this might actually be harmful to Scotland. Paying for something that might make us worse of, eh? Millions and millions of pounds that would be better spent on things that are important to people here in Scotland.

Trident costs Scotland £100,000,000 per annum. I think that could be better spent but the only way we will ever be in a position to make that choice is with Independence.

Lots of other areas for discussion no doubt but that's my take on a few.

[Bobh]

Your home city is going to be a big Yes in September!

. How do you know this? A vast majority of people in Glasgow I speak to are voting NO.

[Hume]

How do you know this? A vast majority of people in Glasgow I speak to are voting NO.

Obviously Bobh I don't know that, its more of a prediction. I suppose I am basing it on some of the door to door feedback though where canvassing of opinions equating to 8x the amount of people who generally take part in 'the polls' (that's not just Glasgow to be fair) has shown results of 40% Yes, 30% No and 30% Undecided. So about 57% Yes and 43% No excluding undecided over a fairly big sample. There is also evidence that undecided seem to be leaning more to Yes, too.

Its not scientific and it is conducted by Yes campaigners so plenty of room for error though. The flaw I suppose is that is was conducted in targeted areas, where people probably have similar views. Perhaps in some of the more affluent areas the results would be reversed, I don't know.

[Govangirl]

I totally agree with Bobh, Hume and also refute your assertion that if I were living in Glasgow, I'd be making a Yes vote. Like all of my family and friends there, I'd still be having grave doubts and would reject independence. And Hume, I said Martin had raised pertinent points - he did! They are points that must be answered.

You say:

we are still at the mercy of policies that we do not vote for and that is not democratic in my view.

Typical problem all over the world. I didn't vote for half the policies in my country - it IS what's called a democracy, I'm afraid!

Sorry but the currency and EU membership problems will not go away, that's why I'm focused on them. I don't argue that the pound is a a fully tradable currency that Scotland will use but it's the question of going into a banking union with the rest of the UK that is unclear. I would even put it out there that maybe those in the rest of the UK should have a referendum on whether or not they should be the risky lender for a foreign country when no-one else will. As for EU membership I am not dealing in fear tactics - I honestly cannot see it happening. It can only re-enter if all EU members agree - the Spanish problem, for example? It is the one thing those pro-independence supporters insist will go ahead despite the evidence to the contrary and it is fact that Scottish firms are in fear of this uncertainty. And yes, you are right that trading will be a huge problem and Madrid won't be your only problem with membership. I really wish this uncertainty could be solved before September because then I would fear it less. I just believe that Scotland benefits from being part of a bigger political and monetary union where economic risks are shared. But with an iScotland with no pound, no EU membership, no support for their banks, most of the money still under the sea . . . I fear it. I don't think all those voices can continue to be called scaremongering.

[lochend]

Good,honest post GG,If only everyone could have the certainty of Baz and his ilk.

[Hume]

Govangirl, we will need to disagree on the pertinence of Martin's points

As far as I can see, he thinks:

We will be ruled by a foreign power
We actually have it quite good at the moment
if the YES vote wins then Scotland will be for sale to the highest bidder and

He wants to know:

if all Scots currently living in England will be given a certain amount of time to apply through the due course of immigration rubbish, to become legally entitled to live in England or will they become just another lot of illegals he has to put up with ?
He wants to know if there will be armed guards on the border because Scotland will become a stop-off point for any terrorist that cares to use it.

Anyway, I didn't mean to cause offence by saying I thought you might get behind a Yes vote. I deliberately said I didn't know you, which of course I don't, its just people with similar views to some you have expressed on here in the past are getting behind a Yes vote. For instance, feeling betrayed by Tony Blair's Labour Government from 1997 onward and expressing admiration for figures such as Jimmy Reid.

You say:

we are still at the mercy of policies that we do not vote for and that is not democratic in my view.

Typical problem all over the world. I didn't vote for half the policies in my country - it IS what's called a democracy, I'm afraid!

The key difference here is that whilst you personally did not vote for the parties that form the current Government, between them they did win enough seats to achieve that. Ignoring the flaws of FPTP, that I suppose, is democracy IF you consider the UK to be your country.

My country is Scotland and Scotland overwhelming, in terms of votes and seats, rejected the Tories and Lib Dems, yet they are our Government. Do you think that is democracy? Does that represent how we are Better Together?

This goes right to the very centre of the issue. By saying No, people are saying their country is the UK.

[lochend]

"My country is Scotland and Scotland overwhelming, in terms of votes and seats, rejected the Tories and Lib Dems, yet they are our Government. Do you think that is democracy?" Similar frustrations that we feel on Merseyside!

[Hume]

Yes, lochend, I don't doubt that but unless you regard Merseyside as your country, you are not making the same point I am.

If you regard and are happy for the UK to be the sovereign state that you live in, then see my response above. You just have to accept that your country as a whole voted for something other then you did. I'm not happy to accept important decisions about my life being made 400 miles away by a government we, in Scotland, did not elect. * Anyone considering voting No needs to realise that they are giving their acceptance to a system where this can arise.

I don't think that is a point of argument, its just an undisputable fact.

If, on the other hand, post independence, our Government is made up of a party or parties that I did not vote for, I will accept that, safe in the knowledge its what the majority in my country wanted.

* even when there is a Labour Government, its not because Scotland voted for it, its because England voted for it.

[LANDROVER ROGER]

Back to basics.Who would you trust to govern honestly and fairly?Whitehall or an elected Scottish Parliament?

[baz]

Back to basics.Who would you trust to govern honestly and fairly?
Whitehall or an elected Scottish Parliament?

First, you need to compare like for like.
Westminster or Holyrood

10% of MPs sitting in Westminster represent the will of the people of Scotland.

100% of MSPs sitting in Holyrood represent the will of the people of Scotland.

Holyrood, also has a more democratic function
The Scottish Parliament is elected according to a form of proportional representation known as the Additional Member System (AMS). This is intended to ensure that the share of seats each party receives reflects as closely as possible its level of support among voters, but it also allows each constituency to have its own representative in the Parliament.

[Govangirl]

I'm not happy to accept important decisions about my life being made 400 miles away by a government we, in Scotland, did not elect. * Anyone considering voting No needs to realise that they are giving their acceptance to a system where this can arise.

I don't think that is a point of argument, its just an undisputable fact.

Hume, here's my view: I'm not happy to accept important decisions about my life being made 100 miles away by a government we, in my part of the world, did not elect. * Anyone voting in any election needs to realise that they are giving their acceptance to a system where this can arise. I don't think that is a point of argument, its just an undisputable fact.

However, I would be much, much happier if I had a parliament for my own region with 129 MPs having the power to make laws over agriculture, education, environment, health, local government and justice.

I think a Yes vote puts this in jeopardy and I just think that Scotland has enough power through devolution to govern the country within the UK. For example, my personal - very strong - belief that a country's measure of how civilised it is, is whether it has free education; you have this Hume, I do not. If there are things you don't like then negotiate on them and
find ways to make the union work not look for ways to break it up.

[baz]

Gordon Brown calls for end to
Scotland's distinct education system

"This week, he has endorsed the idea of a UK-wide education system - which could only mean taking powers away from Scotland and giving them back to Westminster - on the very day Alistair Darling and the No campaign are desperately trying to say that they stand for more powers for Scotland."

article

[Govangirl]

1. The above is printed by a Yes-supporting organisation.
2. It is dated 14th June. Folk didnae tak ony notice 6 weeks ago and they're certainly not doing so now.
3. We can safely say this is a desperate attempt to scrape the bottom of an increasingly worn-away barrel!!

[baz]

1. The above is printed by a Yes-supporting organisation.
2. It is dated 14th June. Folk didnae tak ony notice 6 weeks ago and they're certainly not doing so now.
3. We can safely say this is a desperate attempt to scrape the bottom of an increasingly worn-away barrel!!

1. How about The Scotsman.

2. Short attention span is a modern phenomena, something to be relied upon.
It is hard to notice some things, given the bias of the mainstream media.
Especially the BBC.
A calm, moderate,balanced explanation of this report by
Dr. Robertson of the University of West of Scotland.

3. An unfortunate error by Gordon Brown,
but it is interesting to see what the plans might be.

Save Scottish Education ..... vote YES