Machrihanish Offshore Windfarm

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Re: Machrihanish Offshore Windfarm

Postby Ship called Dignity » Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:26 pm

Arguably the best debate ever on the Kintyre Forum! 8)

Good to see so many well balanced posts too - really good posts by S6 MMF too.

Like many others I'm not opposed to windfarms - onshore or offshore. Its been interesting to read some comments which add my support for windfarms.

As for this one, I just don't like the location - think it is ghastly. I am surprised that so many are so dismissive of that and unsympathetic to the feelings of the people of Machrihanish in particular. It is, afterall, THEIR village and personally I think people should respect their feelings on this emotive issue.
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Re: Machrihanish Offshore Windfarm

Postby jowett63 » Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:51 pm

The new Facebook page entitled We Want Machrihanish WIndfarm are correct, except they forgot to add the word Offshore. We all want sustainable energy, but this is located inshore and to the detriment of the people of West Kintyre, just to save a power company some money.

The latest SSE Photomontage is available on the Say No Facebook Page:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/SAY-NO-TO ... 1553301756 and although SSE have done their usual trick og greying out the turbines it is still a scary pic - especially when you see that it only shows 40 out of the 105 turbines planned. Imagine if you were a skein of geese trying to fly through that lot!

I also like this non SSE clear image taken from Middle beach looking back to Machrihanish which shows how close these things will be - sailers and fishers beware.
Image

I have also found the legislation governing the granting of the license to erect these things and it says:
Powers under section 36 of the Electricity Act 1989 to build or operate any offshore wind or water-driven generating stations above 1MW have been executively devolved to the Scottish ministers. In discharging those powers, the Scottish ministers have to comply with the requirements of the Electricity Works (Environmental Impact Assessment) (Scotland) Regulations 2000. That legislation ensures that, when we build an electricity-generating station in Scotland, we are not in breach of European Union environmental assessment directives. That means that the Scottish ministers must ensure that the benefits of renewable generation are not reaped at the expense of other aspects of the environment".

Well if this is not kicking the backside out of the environment of Machrihanish Bay then I do not know what else would - short of the Amoco Cadiz running aground 2moro!

Please respond to the government consultation on this appalling and unnecessary development before the closing date of 16th August - all the links etc are in previous postings.
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Re: Machrihanish Offshore Windfarm

Postby harbourmaster » Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:22 pm

My tuppenceworth for what it's worth,here in Kintyre we are blessed with many beautiful panoramic views,so if the offshore windfarm goes ahead then jump in your car go for a wee run to Southend or Carradale or down the Dohrlin or one of many other spots and enjoy.We really are spoilt for choice.I'm sure the golfers are not going to be bothered,not as if there's going to be one on every green.Just don't see why people are getting so worked up,they have got to go somewhere so why not Machrihanish?They do have electricity out there now ,don't they?
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Re: Machrihanish Offshore Windfarm

Postby S6MMF » Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:16 am

jowett63 wrote:S6MMF - I heartily welcome your informative other side of the coin observations - they have made me go and do a lot of digging for information on this subject which few of us have had reason to worry about until now.

Just trying to give the view of a silver lining to what could potentially be a huge cloud; however clouds might be a thing you would grow to love as they do a great job of hiding windfarms! :lol:
jowett63 wrote:The action committee is writing to the Community Councils along the Solway Firth to see how much economic development has occured there as a result of the Robin Rigg Windfarm and what the reality of the now complete farm is compared to the original predictions. We will post the totality of their response on the Facebook site and put a link here.

This can only be a good thing then you will of course get many other views and experiences to your debate, both negative and positive I’m sure…….
jowett63 wrote:You may well be correct about the futility of resistance to this blinkered flight towards wave power.

you’ve lost me here, must have been something someone else commented on as I haven't yet mentioned wave power :? !
jowett63 wrote:The sad thing is that if the development was a on the scale and as far distant as Robin Rigg is to the villages of Nithsdale, then this community would probably not mind at all...but it is not. It is not in our back yard, but in our front yard chapping on the door and shouting loudly "Can I ruin the lives of your communities for £50k a year please??!!"..

Keeping hanging onto this £50k per year thing, read my initial post properly! For the Solway it wass a £100k a year split between two communities at £50k each. The £100k was calculated from their Governance protocol which was drawn up (something your action group should focus on also I’d say!!) The calculated figure of £100k was based on an output of 180MW power plant. If Machrihanish was to be given the go ahead based on current proposals it would be a 378MW power plant so potentially if based on the same Governance protocol calculations that would be £210k per year GUARANTEED for 10years minimum. If your scenic view could be ruined by this then I’m sure Machrihanish would gladly welcome a good chunk of that, but you have to go fighting for this and MORE I’d say especially due to the fact of the close proximity! To give you some examples, you talked about the destruction of leisure facilities; some of the communities actually built new facilities, and renovated existing ones. Would I be right in saying the kids of Machrihanish have lost their playing field?? Get them to build a new one……… I’m not campaigning for this I’m just trying to help based on my knowledge of the Solway funds to give an in sight of what possibilities are out there if you should fail to stop this project from happening!! :idea: :idea:
jowett63 wrote:There is no guarantee any jobs will be created in Welcon, there is no guarantee the onshore support and link to the grid sites will come via kintyre, there is no guarantee the airbase will be used to ferry folk out to the sites, there is no guarantee local boats will be used to maintain or support the things.

This is correct there are no guarantees, but what's for sure is - a plant and operation of this GIGANTIC size as referred too will require a substantial staff base both local and sub contractural - to first of all construct, build, and commission then for the next 20 years operate and maintain, it is these GUARANTEES that Kintyre needs to ensure they get all of which will bring extensive econimic benefit to all of Kintyre.........(harbour / hotels / B&Bs / bars & resturaunts / the airport , to name but a few) I doubt it will completely scare off the tourists?? Any how there are some tourists who don't mind or are curious about these things.
jowett63 wrote:However what is guaranteed is that 70 square kilometres of this thriving INSHORE coast will be subject to the exclusion orders and controls that were imposed at Robin Rigg. Leisure sailers, inshore fishermen and yes Surfers will be impacted. You were wrong to be dismissive of the potential impact on the swell of so many huge and densely concentrated piles in such a shallow inshore.

MMN :@ :@ You're INCORRECT, FACT - At Robin Rigg there are no restrictions what so ever furthermore in Scottish waters people are free to do as they please including leisure sailors, inshore fishermen and surfers!... I'm still not convinced about the surf issue, every day in the solway I witness surfers, wind surfers, kite surfers and they have got no issues from what I can see, speaking to them they are very cool about it 8) 8)
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Re: Machrihanish Offshore Windfarm

Postby Govangirl » Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:32 am

I haven’t given a view because I don’t have to live there and so it’s none of my business. However, I do drive past a huge offshore (ha!) windfarm every day (built, installed and operated by non-UK workers by the way despite promises of jobs) and it is most intrusive. I always thought that there was a need to ensure that these developments do not intrude into the settings of prominent landscape features and views. These proposals are put forward for an area of outstanding natural beauty so if landscapes need to be protected, this is surely why folk are fighting against it. Please think carefully before allowing the destruction of this area’s heritage. Even if the financial cost is higher, windfarms should be built far out at sea and certainly not in areas like these.
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Re: Machrihanish Offshore Windfarm

Postby A15 NMA » Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:09 am

[quote="Govangirl"](built, installed and operated by non-UK workers by the way despite promises of jobs)

FYI

I was the installation supervisor on the project ( I am from Campbeltown) you are referring to and the installation sub-contractors were from Great Yarmouth, the installation vessel which was used for construction of the site was from Teeside with an all UK crew. There are also 70+ divers on the project and various support vessels which were all UK based. When up and running the site will be operated by a team of UK guys who are already in place.:o
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Re: Machrihanish Offshore Windfarm

Postby Govangirl » Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:19 am

Well, that's very strange . . . However, the point is that the area, greatly in need of work and regeneration, had been told it would bring benefits but it didn't. The only thing it brought was a blight on the landscape and not in an area of great beauty.
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Re: Machrihanish Offshore Windfarm

Postby bill » Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:36 am

A15 NMA wrote:FYI

I was the installation supervisor on the project ( I am from Campbeltown) you are referring to and the installation sub-contractors were from Great Yarmouth, the installation vessel which was used for construction of the site was from Teeside with an all UK crew. There are also 70+ divers on the project and various support vessels which were all UK based. When up and running the site will be operated by a team of UK guys who are already in place.:o


Good to hear from another individual who is actively involved in the wind farm industry.Your post certainly lays bare the myths and rumour surrounding the employment of the construction workforce of the previous post.Without actual inside dealings the rest of us can only base our views on half truths and second hand information.Ofcourse the truth can be twisted to suit.
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Re: Machrihanish Offshore Windfarm

Postby Govangirl » Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:02 pm

bill wrote:.Ofcourse the truth can be twisted to suit.


Of course!!!!!!! :roll:

I was referring to the fact that we in this area were told it would benefit - there was no benefit whatsoever other than, as I already said, an ugly blight on the landscape.

I am quite sure that the project bosses can bring a great deal of dialogue to this topic but it is of no more importance than that of the residents who are having to suffer in the future and explain this destruction to their future great grandchildren.
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Re: Machrihanish Offshore Windfarm

Postby mrsbagpuss » Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:42 pm

Govangirl wrote:(built, installed and operated by non-UK workers)[/quote

A15 NMA wrote:installation sub-contractors were from Great Yarmouth, the installation vessel which was used for construction of the site was from Teeside with an all UK crew. There are also 70+ divers on the project and various support vessels which were all UK based. When up and running the site will be operated by a team of UK guys who are already in place


Govangirl wrote:the area, greatly in need of work and regeneration, had been told it would bring benefits but it didn't.


Surley all these jobs N15 NMA mentioned are benificial to the peole employed in them? Sounds like alot of employment!

Assumptions such as:
Govangirl wrote:non-UK workers

don't help debate a matter, facts do! :roll:
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Re: Machrihanish Offshore Windfarm

Postby Bertie » Wed Jul 28, 2010 1:27 pm

don't help debate a matter, facts do!


Don't entirely agree there. The bulk of this debate has been based on perception ie the effect the sighting of these towers would have on the scenery and the landscape. Some perceive it as a blight where others see it as something to be embraced. Neither opinion is fact but both opinions lead to a healthy debate on a huge issue for the area. Facts certainly add substance to the debate but please allow us to have our opinions too.

Surley all these jobs N15 NMA mentioned are benificial to the peole employed in them? Sounds like alot of employment!


I'm sure it does but, the point being made was, these aren't local jobs. I'm sure the lads from the North East of England will be delighted to take their wage packets back to Newcastle but that isn't going to help the community in Machrihanish.
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Re: Machrihanish Offshore Windfarm

Postby LANDROVER ROGER » Wed Jul 28, 2010 1:30 pm

N15 NMA stated"When up and running the site will be operated by a team of UK guys who are already in place."
Surely they will live and spend money in the area?
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Re: Machrihanish Offshore Windfarm

Postby Bertie » Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:01 pm

I'm sure they will Roger but it will be nowhere near the reinvestment that a local workforce would make to the area. After all there is an EU workforce "in place and on site" with Skycon. How much of their wages do you think Campbeltown and the surrounding area gain from?
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Re: Machrihanish Offshore Windfarm

Postby StephenJ » Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:08 pm

How could the community theoretically argue against this development?

1. The Environmental Principle argument: This is an area of outstanding, unspoiled natural beauty. It should be preserved for future generations.

2. The Wildlife Impact Argument: What about the geese/dolphins/(insert rare animal here)?

3. The Tourism Argument: It will ruin tourism (includes the "move it round the coast and we're all happy" argument).

4. It will ruin OUR view from MY house

5. The anti-windpower argument: Wind power is not the answer.

And the likely responses:

1. "Not according to Scottish National Heritage it's not, and even if it was, we build power lines through National Parks anyway, so we can just do this anyway too."

2. "Our studies show that there are no special wildlife considerations. Good luck with proving that there are."

3. "Our studies show that tourism is not developed enough in Kintyre for this to make a sizeable economic difference."

4. "What, all 150 of you? Would you rather your house ended up 20ft underwater? Everybody else in the country is going to have to look at them too."

5. "The Scottish Government is committed to windpower as a part of the mix of renewable energy sources as we transition to a low-carbon economy."

In light of the above, I have little doubt that his project WILL go ahead, although I would love to be proven wrong.

Attempts at painting those who are against this project as somehow "anti-progress" is ridiculous. Real progress would be serious long-term investment in the technologies that will inevitably render the blind alley of wind power obsolete. Those who are in favour of the project should also be aware that it is just the thin edge of a very big windmill-shaped wedge.

I AM against wind power in general, for simple scienctific and economic reasons. There are a huge number of alternative energy projects being undertaken in all parts of the world, most of which will inevitably provide greater efficiencies and more importantly be more SUSTAINABLE than wind power over the medium and long term. These new technologies are NOT pie in the sky, and once the US, China and Japan get serious about these they will become ubiquitous more quickly than anyone can imagine, leaving wind power looking like the lumbering heavy industrial anachronism that it is.

Of course, there will be advances and breakthroughs in wind power, just like in every field - in fact the proposed designs for Machrihanish have just become obsolete:

http://www.ubergizmo.com/15/archives/2010/07/aerogenerator_x_wind_turbine_to_outlast_the_rest.html

One of the top selling points of offshore wind historically is the fact that no-one can see it - out of sight out of mind. Call me a cynic, but my guess is that the power companies are probably aware that a variety of factors (eg. spiralling cost of fuel for shipping) could make far offshore wind uneconomic pretty soon, but there are probably limits in place for the number of allowed onshore developments, so they're pressing for "offshore" projects that are so close to the shore that the distinction becomes much less meaningfull.

I do realise that wind power is now set in stone as a major part of "the mix" in the muddled governmental response to the coming "energy crisis". The current Scottish government sees offshore wind as a good fit with a nostalgic view of Scotland's traditional strengths in heavy engineering and offshore construction. To them it seems like a no-brainer, and in the short term it is. But it is also brain-dead, because even in the medium term, wind will not be cost-effective or sustainable in comparison to other newer technologies. What is the point in trying to become a world leader in a technology that will inevitably be superceded? The Danish got on the bandwagon at the right time, the Scottish approach is "me too" decades too late. However, now that the political will behind this is "all in", any and all opposition will be disregarded.

The environmentalist lobby in Scotland are split and very confused - they are taking a "anything but nuclear/hydrocarbon" view even if it means the destruction of the natural environment, which in the case of "offshore" (1km!) wind will include most of the last genuinely unspoiled areas of western Europe.

A lot of local people and regular visitors (but clearly not all) are justifiably upset about the drastic change to the view and the proximity. However, we must note that Machrihanish is NOT a National Scenic Area.

http://www.snh.gov.uk/protecting-scotlands-nature/protected-areas/national-designations/nsa/

If it was, you would think that the development would have a better chance of being blocked? The official line appears to be that it doesn't matter how "nice" a view is if it is not "special" geographically. Of course, it IS special to the 10,000 or so who see it regularly, but the government can and will steamroller over any opposition because the number of homes (and people/tourists) that will be affected are negligible on a national scale.

It's pretty obvious that they are going to put turbines everywhere they can get away with. It is clear on the SNH map that the North of Arran is a NSA but the south isn't, and lo and behold, there are plans for offshore wind at the south of Arran.

Even if Machrihanish WAS a National Scenic Area, I believe that the project would still go ahead. Why? The facts are that the SNP have shown no interest in preserving the environment on principle. If you want to know what is going to happen here, look at the Beauly Denny example where a power company was allowed to put a new power line THROUGH A NATIONAL PARK with almost zero consultation or serious investigation of alternatives. The M74 extension also went ahead despite the government's own £1 million study strongly suggesting that the project would not achieve its stated aims.

Going by the metric provided by S6MMF, it looks as if the community in South Kintyre could be in line for £453,600 per year? It sounds like a lot but really it's a drop in the ocean for a community. It is better than nothing though. The pragmatist in me says put all the energy from the campaign into securing those funds and maximising potential local employment. The romantic in me says tell them to "get tae".

Sad times.
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Re: Machrihanish Offshore Windfarm

Postby S6MMF » Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:20 pm

LANDROVER ROGER wrote:N15 NMA stated"When up and running the site will be operated by a team of UK guys who are already in place."
Surely they will live and spend money in the area?


I couldn't agree more I am in that exact situation here in the Solway....... FACT - there are 36 LOCAL people working between all the parties involved on this now operational project , all contributing directly into to the local economy. Majority who are married with families all benefiting from the employment

In fact thinking about it I am the one not local :oops: :shock: maybe I should just uplift and leave....don't think so, but what I'll say is I live and spend like a local, and that goes along with many sub contractors who work here too.....living in local hotel accomodation (not national chains hotels), using the local leisure facilities (council run)....shopping in tescos :o :o and has been so for the past three years :!: :!:
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