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PUb Watch
Posted:
Sun Nov 23, 2008 7:50 pmby hoots the scoop
What are your views?
Piece from the Courier a couple of weeks ago
TO HELP prevent drunken attacks on doctors and staff at Campbeltown Hospital and reduce the amount of anti-social behaviour in Kintyre a Pubwatch scheme has been introduced and is now in full swing.
A shocking incident took place last year when a drunken man punched a doctor in the face and staff at Campbeltown Hospital were threatened with a knife in another drunken episode.
Since its inception, Pubwatch has seen five men banned from licensed premises, resulting in them being banned from all the premises that have signed up and joined the Kintyre Licensed Trade Association.
Public houses, hotels, restaurants, off-sales like Tesco and Co-Op and grocer’s shops which have a licence to sell alcohol are backing the scheme.
Pubwatch is designed to help reduce crime and anti-social behaviour in the area as well as ensuring all customers have a safe environment to socialise in.
In the past, a person who was barred by one licensee could simply enter another where they would be free to continue their anti-social behaviour.
Barred
Pubwatch effectively stops this, so that when the offender is barred from one they are thereafter barred from all the member premises participating in the Pubwatch scheme.
Examples of the types of ban the Kintyre Pubwatch scheme will issue are: conviction for an assault on staff or customer, minimum one year ban; vandalism/theft/disorder, six-month ban; drug abuse within premises, one-year ban; drug dealing within premises, life ban; breach of ban, additional month added to ban. All licensees have a responsibility to manage their premises properly and have the power to refuse service and refuse access to their premises by individuals who cause acts of violence, disorder or anti-social behaviour.
Any person who in the opinion of the licensee or any member of staff conducts themselves in a disorderly manner will be excluded from the premises and police immediately notified.
The offender’s details will then be submitted for consideration of exclusion from all other licensed premises operating in this scheme
Re: PUb Watch
Posted:
Sun Nov 23, 2008 10:02 pmby katya
Speaking as someone who has worked in a variety of licensed premises for many years, I think this is a great idea. It has been done on an unofficial basis beforehand, contacting the place where someone who has misbehaved on your premises to warn them for example, but to have everyone working together can only be a good thing. Not only for the members of staff who have to endure abuse, but also for other patrons who don't want to encounter that on a night out.
Kx
Re: PUb Watch
Posted:
Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:14 amby Widz
I think this is completely open to abuse and can see it costing Tesco and the Co-op a lot of money in law-suites. Enforcing a social punishment without trial by peers and no right to appeal is an infraction on civil liberties and rights. Please oh please can some idiot ban me, I could do with getting rid of my mortgage.
Re: PUb Watch
Posted:
Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:55 amby Mr.Everready
Widz wrote:I think this is completely open to abuse and can see it costing Tesco and the Co-op a lot of money in law-suites. Enforcing a social punishment without trial by peers and no right to appeal is an infraction on civil liberties and rights. Please oh please can some idiot ban me, I could do with getting rid of my mortgage.
4 years on and I can't say I've seen any "law-suites" yet.
Any pub ( or any other place for that matter ) has the right to refuse entry to anyone they see fit, so I don't see why it's against anyones civil liberties.
Re: PUb Watch
Posted:
Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:00 amby Hume
Widz, it seems as long as these schemes are operated by those in the Licenced Trade, rather then by the Police or Local Authority (who should only offer help and support) these bans can be imposed without appeal and importantly not infringe ones Human Rights.
At least that is the ruling of a High Court in England.
Re: PUb Watch
Posted:
Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:47 pmby booboos
Hume wrote:Widz, it seems as long as these schemes are operated by those in the Licenced Trade, rather then by the Police or Local Authority (who should only offer help and support) these bans can be imposed without appeal and importantly not infringe ones Human Rights.
At least that is the ruling of a High Court in England.
The pubwatch scheme here is run by the police and Kilmory licensing board with members from both at the four weekly meetings( along with representatives from the licensed premises) The police issue the letters banning people personally by hand!
Re: PUb Watch
Posted:
Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:17 pmby Hume
Then perhaps further scrutiny of the local scheme is required? I have no idea how it operates of course and this story is both fairly old and based on a ruling in English law:
http://www.morningadvertiser.co.uk/General-News/High-Court-upholds-pubwatch-bans
Re: PUb Watch
Posted:
Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:28 pmby LANDROVER ROGER
I would suggest that "Policing" the pubs would be a big problem.Most pubs are struggling to exist since the onset of cheap supermarket booze and the smoking ban.Therefore paying for door staff would not be viable.Not every licensee has a black belt in martial arts so may not be physically capable of ejecting anyone.Down here in Stoke-on-Trent we have a big problem with drunken assaults late at night over weekends.The problem here is that people binge on cheap supermarket booze and then go out.They are already drunk before they go in to the pubs or clubs.The theory of Pubwatch is good.The practical side is dubious.
Re: PUb Watch
Posted:
Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:21 pmby odds
LANDROVER ROGER wrote:The problem here is that people binge on cheap supermarket booze and then go out.They are already drunk before they go in to the pubs or clubs.The theory of Pubwatch is good.The practical side is dubious.
Therefore it is the responsibility of the Licensee to refuse to serve them if in thier opinion they are already drunk. However, it appears now that profit comes before responsibility, the same can be said with the problem of teenagers in pubs/nightclubs. So establishments will serve anyone as long as they are willing to spend, it's only when they leave the pubs/clubs totally wasted that most of the problems begin and the police are left to handle it all.
I'm all for the plan, but when was the last time you ever heard of a publican getting warned/fined for serving underage drinkers ? They take action against shops for selling tobacco and booze to teens, yet pubs get away with it all the time.
Pete
Re: PUb Watch
Posted:
Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:30 amby muppetanimal
booboos wrote:Hume wrote:Widz, it seems as long as these schemes are operated by those in the Licenced Trade, rather then by the Police or Local Authority (who should only offer help and support) these bans can be imposed without appeal and importantly not infringe ones Human Rights.
At least that is the ruling of a High Court in England.
The pubwatch scheme here is run by the police and Kilmory licensing board with members from both at the four weekly meetings( along with representatives from the licensed premises) The police issue the letters banning people personally by hand!
European law requires that an accused is tried by an impartial jury, told what the charges against him/her are, and given the right to question his/her accusers and to give evidence in his/her defence. On every one of these counts the local pubwatch scheme is flawed, it was instigated by the police and now used by the Licensing Board to determine who is a "fit and proper person" to hold a premises licence .... if you don't sign up for the scheme the "suggestion" is that you may not meet the required criteria. The current scheme allows the accuser (the pub) to also act as judge and jury, and the "executioner" of the sentence handed down as well !
Re: PUb Watch
Posted:
Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:00 pmby gizmo
I believe, the landlord or his staff, have the right to refuse to serve anyone as they see fit.
I suppose nowadays you would have to prove you were not discriminating against some group or other, but if it is a habitual trouble-making ned, I wouldnt see a problem.
Re: PUb Watch
Posted:
Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:51 pmby Hume
gizmo wrote:I believe, the landlord or his staff, have the right to refuse to serve anyone as they see fit.
I suppose nowadays you would have to prove you were not discriminating against some group or other, but if it is a habitual trouble-making ned, I wouldnt see a problem.
Yes, but the dubiety may come in where the ban extends to number of establishments in one area and depending on who has handed down the ban.
If its an informal arrangement between pub owners / shop keepers it appears its fine and outwith the notmal legal procedures, which would bring with it the right of appeal. If the scheme apprears to be a public organisation (can't remember the phrase used), the test for which seems to be top level involvement of the Police / Council, then it could potentially be challenged in court.
That is, of course, my interpretation after five minutes of googling!
Re: PUb Watch
Posted:
Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:06 amby north beachmore
Well, what a stooshie in this topic. I have had long experience of the licensed trade in an urban and rural environment. The theory and practice of the pub watch scheme has been long running and has also been confrontational. On the business side, the problems between public houses in a local area are derived from competition; therefore profit. This does not help with the idea of co-operation! This can also be extended to the fact that when I became a freelance Licensed Trade Auditor, in one town with not many more licensed premises than Campbeltown, with much initial reluctance from the publicans, I eventually managed to persuade them that if they pooled their buying power they would get preferential prices for their product. It worked and is still going... Co-operation is the key word. Licensees have an obligation and a legal responsibility to not serve if a customer is intoxicated. I know it is hard for the customer to accept at the time, but if the whole town acts together, with co-operation, then every establishment becomes more attractive as a venue for a night out. Everyone wins. And if anyone wants advice on setting up a co-operative buying structure for bars, hotels and restaurants in and around Campbeltown, I would be happy to help. Also if anyone would like to discuss things further in private, so be it....
Good luck
Re: PUb Watch
Posted:
Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:13 pmby smiles
muppetanimal wrote:European law requires that an accused is tried by an impartial jury, told what the charges against him/her are, and given the right to question his/her accusers and to give evidence in his/her defence. On every one of these counts the local pubwatch scheme is flawed, it was instigated by the police and now used by the Licensing Board to determine who is a "fit and proper person" to hold a premises licence .... if you don't sign up for the scheme the "suggestion" is that you may not meet the required criteria. The current scheme allows the accuser (the pub) to also act as judge and jury, and the "executioner" of the sentence handed down as well !
At the end of the day it is their licence and they can refuse anyone they want. If licenced premises want to get together and band someone from their premises as one then good on them. Keep out the numpties out and at the end of the day if you don't misbehave what is their to be concerned about?