US policies - Guantanamo and the military

[Sweltered]

I was born into a time where the Russians were the bad guys.

At the time it never dawned on me that America wasn't really all it appeared to be in tv shows.

This is the country that has pretty much been at war since WW2, that had mass "outings" very simillar to the Inquisition during the McCarthy years (reds under the bed, neighbour denouncing neighbour), that under J Edgar Hoover and the FBI kept dossiers and taps on anybody they wanted to, a CIA that destabilised large parts of the globe and that had political and non-political leaders assassinated (always a lone gunman too lack of originality there ..JFK, MLK,Malcolm X, John Lennon even as he came out of retirement to once again corrupt the youth!!!) ....... so why wasn't I surprised the 2000 election was STOLEN from Al Gore (Bush threatened to dispute his dodgy dealings in every court in the land ...), that America went back to war (I predicted it on election night 2000) (the further you look back into history the further into the future you can see) ... and all the crap thats happened since.

Guantanemo Bay doesn't surprise me at all. America and Americans may claim to live in the land of the free, liberty and justice for all ... but it's just rhetoric, total rubbish.

America's post WW2 history doesn't make pleasant reading at all, and it makes you wonder who the bad guys really are.

Do you live in America? Have you ever lived in America. If not, then you don't know. The media has a great deal to answer for. The real America is not as portrayed in the BBC or SKY or CNN. Scottish people cringe when they see a "see you jimmy hat", or a drunken Scot on "Casualty". These are stereotypes, which are an abominiation, yet people seem to want to believe the stereotypical America as portrayed in the media. If you have lived here and have this opinion, fine. You seem to forget that the British government has aided and abetted everything the US has done over the last 50 years. The tory government spied on labour leaders and union officials, where is the difference?Why is the Britixh Government exempt from blame in the Middle East, after all they are mostly to blame? Am I wrong in thinking the British instigated the setting up of the State of Israel?
You are not seriously suggesting John Lennon was killed by anything other than a psycho? In the words of Larry the cable guy. That's funny right there. John Lennon wasn't in a position to corrupt anyone. The youth of the day had moved on from psuedo intellectuals like Lennon and embraced New Wave music, hell Disco was more popular than Lennon! What about Jill Dando, was she killed by the CIA too, or a lone gunman.

As for Bush threatening lawsuits, Gore would have done the same. They are all as bad as each other, and no better and no worse than Thatcher or Blair.

I can't help thinking what would have happened of John Smith had not died in 1994.

PS Guantanamo Bay is in Cuba and not subject to costitutional law, so the rules of freedom, liberty and justice don't apply. Terrorists don't follow the Geneva convention either. And remember, the British government helped.

Glass houses guys, glass houses.

[Beachcomber]

Guantanamo Bay is in Cuba and not subject to costitutional law, so the rules of freedom, liberty and justice don't apply.

Which is, of course, precisely why the US military is using it as a prison camp. They know their own constitution and laws would rule it illegal on home soil.

[Sweltered]

Guantanamo Bay is in Cuba and not subject to costitutional law, so the rules of freedom, liberty and justice don't apply.

Which is, of course, precisely why the US military is using it as a prison camp. They know their own constitution and laws would rule it illegal on home soil.

Yes, so? You seem to be blaming the worlds woes on the US , when the UK Government is hand in glove withe the American administration. You are blaming a country for what it's leaders are doing, but being selective about which countries to blame.

[Beachcomber]

Guantanamo Bay is in Cuba and not subject to costitutional law, so the rules of freedom, liberty and justice don't apply.

Which is, of course, precisely why the US military is using it as a prison camp. They know their own constitution and laws would rule it illegal on home soil.

Yes, so? You seem to be blaming the worlds woes on the US , when the UK Government is hand in glove withe the American administration. You are blaming a country for what it's leaders are doing, but being selective about which countries to blame.

I don't think *I* am, at least not particularly overtly.

The US and its various allies (UK included) have stood up and, essentially, said how much better we are than those nasty dictators like Saddam Hussein and his ilk, yet employ the same shady methods and tactics. Its hippocritical in the very least.

[general jack o'niell]

deleted due to apathy on my part

[Bobbie En Tejas]

How bright is it to think if no one makes the decision to put their lives on the line if needed, that there will be anyone prepared to defend the country if attacked? With pots and pans on their heads and broomsticks for weapons? Or would you rather have people who already know what they are doing?

Who will be prepared to defend the country? This isn't 1600, this is 2006. How are you prepared to fight today's war if your country is attacked?

And as far as people putting their lives on the line "for a piece of paper," that is rather simplistic. Do you think policemen only put their lives on the line for a pound? Or do you think there might be something deeper involved. There is little crime in Campbeltown, wonder when the last time there was an incident where a police officer really had to be concerned about losing his life in the line of duty, but when they signed up, they knew that was a possibility.

An addition to my post: I am a passivist, have been against every war I can think of since I've been alive, but also think our governments should be ashamed that we didn't send troops to Rwanda where they were slaughtering a million innocent people. There is a time to stand up and fight, and there needs to be people willing to do that. The people in the military can't pick and choose.

[Sweltered]

Guantanamo Bay is in Cuba and not subject to costitutional law, so the rules of freedom, liberty and justice don't apply.

Which is, of course, precisely why the US military is using it as a prison camp. They know their own constitution and laws would rule it illegal on home soil.

Yes, so? You seem to be blaming the worlds woes on the US , when the UK Government is hand in glove withe the American administration. You are blaming a country for what it's leaders are doing, but being selective about which countries to blame.

I don't think *I* am, at least not particularly overtly.

The US and its various allies (UK included) have stood up and, essentially, said how much better we are than those nasty dictators like Saddam Hussein and his ilk, yet employ the same shady methods and tactics. Its hippocritical in the very least.

I've already posted elsewhere that I don't agree with the hypocrisy. The should of course do the same to North Korea, Venezuala and Iran.

[Surfbored]

Get the blinkers off.

This isn't about the American people, that would be like saying every single man, woman & child in Germany in 1939 was a bad b@5tard .. it's simply not true.

Probably everyone on here, myself included, has been raised thinking America was a righteous ally .. maybe it isn't.

There's certainly a case to put forward that suggests it's been hijacked by a coallition of the self-interested .. including the arms manufacturers and the oil barons.
War is huge business.

Who chooses the candidates put forward for the presidential race (6 per side or something)? The little people (ie. us) possibly only get to vote for a pre-chosen outcome anyway.

Furthermore, what do you think the United States of Europe is all about. Jesus, we've fought amongst each other for a 1000 years and now are banding together solely to take on America.

Why the hell do you think Blair sided with America in all this, and Germany & France tried to veto everything. Surely it couldn't have been jockeying for power and leadership in a United Europe, with Britain conveniently siding with America and pissing the aforementioned off. (and leaving them looking weak & powerless)

Take a step back and look at the bigger picture.

America is in breach of every convention known to International law, it swaggers about imposing it's will on all and sundry. Personally I wasn't happy about all the nuclear ordinance in Scotland. I'm also less than impressed with things like "pre-emptive defence strategies" .. thats insane !!!

This is no way derogatory to ordinary people or military personel, they just live their lives or do their jobs.

[Sweltered]

Get the blinkers off.

This isn't about the American people, that would be like saying every single man, woman & child in Germany in 1939 was a bad b@5tard .. it's simply not true.

Probably everyone on here, myself included, has been raised thinking America was a righteous ally .. maybe it isn't.

There's certainly a case to put forward that suggests it's been hijacked by a coallition of the self-interested .. including the arms manufacturers and the oil barons.
War is huge business.

Who chooses the candidates put forward for the presidential race (6 per side or something)? The little people (ie. us) possibly only get to vote for a pre-chosen outcome anyway.

Furthermore, what do you think the United States of Europe is all about. Jesus, we've fought amongst each other for a 1000 years and now are banding together solely to take on America.

Why the hell do you think Blair sided with America in all this, and Germany & France tried to veto everything. Surely it couldn't have been jockeying for power and leadership in a United Europe, with Britain conveniently siding with America and pissing the aforementioned off. (and leaving them looking weak & powerless)

Take a step back and look at the bigger picture.

America is in breach of every convention known to International law, it swaggers about imposing it's will on all and sundry. Personally I wasn't happy about all the nuclear ordinance in Scotland. I'm also less than impressed with things like "pre-emptive defence strategies" .. thats insane !!!

This is no way derogatory to ordinary people or military personel, they just live their lives or do their jobs.

So you would rather leave the evil dictators in power then?

[Beachcomber]

So you would rather leave the evil dictators in power then?

So who decides who is 'evil' and who isn't, and what happens next?

The USA backed Che and Fidel when they overthrew Batista in Cuba but then, all of a sudden, it's them that are the bad guys. Who supplied the Taliban with weapons in Afghanistan when the Soviets were there? A few years later and it's the Taliban that are the bad guys. Same with Iran, Iraq, the Sandinistas (sp?)... Stalin? Hitler?

[Bobbie En Tejas]

Sadly, you are right, Beachcomber. I would hope that there was no indication before these people were put into power what they would do once they got in. Did they know that Castro was going to execute 500 of his opponents, embrace communism and allow Russia to put missile sites on Cuba as a threat to the US? Did they know how abusive and brutal the Taliban would be to their women and that they would train and harbor terrorists bent on destroying the United States? Did they know when Rumsfeld was shaking hands with Saddam back in 1983 or so that he was gassing his own people? I hope not.

But then, as evidenced by the bombing of Baghdad, sometimes the leaders in the US are very short-sighted and don't look beyond the shock and awe to what happens next.

I really hope that they didn't know the capacity of these people. I might be afraid of the answer.

[Surfbored]

And now that we've opened Pandora's box .....

Sadly, you are right, Beachcomber. I would hope that there was no indication before these people were put into power what they would do once they got in. Did they know that Castro was going to execute 500 of his opponents, embrace communism and allow Russia to put missile sites on Cuba as a threat to the US? Did they know how abusive and brutal the Taliban would be to their women and that they would train and harbor terrorists bent on destroying the United States? Did they know when Rumsfeld was shaking hands with Saddam back in 1983 or so that he was gassing his own people? I hope not.

But then, as evidenced by the bombing of Baghdad, sometimes the leaders in the US are very short-sighted and don't look beyond the shock and awe to what happens next.

I really hope that they didn't know the capacity of these people. I might be afraid of the answer.

..........I would imagine you know about these things, the same way we do, ie. reading newspapers and watching tv.

The one amazing and positive thing about the whole Bush era to become public, is that politicians have blatantly been caught telling lies to the public, and putting absolute nonsense and reasoning into the public domain via the news media. (and they don't care) You seriously have to question what you've been told over the years.

Saddam Hussein, Adolf Hitler, George W Bush, Fidel Castro, Kim Jong-il etc etc. ... evil dictator or saviour ?

It all depends on your perspective, your grasp of history and current events, which channels you watch and which papers you read.

[Bobbie En Tejas]

Saddam Hussein, Adolf Hitler, George W Bush, Fidel Castro, Kim Jong-il etc etc. ... evil dictator or saviour ?

It all depends on your perspective, your grasp of history and current events, which channels you watch and which papers you read.

As far as Kim Jong-il, I've gotten my truth from reliable sources... When he bros things up it rill be 911 times 2356! I don't even know what that is! Nobody does!

[Surfbored]

Team America ...... frick yeah !!!!

[Beachcomber]

Did they know that Castro was going to execute 500 of his opponents, embrace communism and allow Russia to put missile sites on Cuba as a threat to the US?

The whole Cuban Missile Crisis was entirely predictable, and precipitated by the US deployment of Jupiter missiles to Turkey, putting them well within range of Soviet targets. Any fool could see that the Soviets would respond in similar fashion, deploying their own missiles to Cuba and within range of continental USA. It could almost be construed as a deliberate act of provocation by the Pentagon against the Soviets.