Referendom

[EMDEE]

I thought you might be saying that Scotland was the runt of the litter in the UK. Patently not the case.

By the same reasoning the sheer size of England's population would be removed from the picture as far as outgoing monies are concerned. It is the revenue and expenditure per capita that we should be looking at, not the density of population in the component parts of the UK.

Even within Scotland we have the densely populated Central Belt with different needs from the majority of the land mass of the country which is really fairly sparsely populated. There has to be some redistribution of funds through taxes, benefits and public expenditure in order to get some sort of justice in meeting the needs of the whole country.

I am undecided myself on whether independence would be good or bad, as there are so many unanswered questions on taxation issues for one thing. we would need more independent information on this, and that would be very difficult to obtain.

[A Horse called Juan Face]

Pretty much my point, though worded far far better.

[Govangirl]

Right, just a thought, if Scotland get independence, would it mean our taxes taking a steep climb?

Yes

[ionnsaigh]

No

[Govangirl]

Horse, under the Barnett Formula,the annual Westminster subsidies to Scotland will disappear and last year this amounted to £11.3 billion. This is a £2,200-per-person subsidy. The Holyrood Parliament in Edinburgh will be forced to make severe cuts in public services without this subsidy.

[Ranald]

Horse, under the Barnett Formula,the annual Westminster subsidies to Scotland will disappear and last year this amounted to £11.3 billion. This is a £2,200-per-person subsidy. The Holyrood Parliament in Edinburgh will be forced to make severe cuts in public services without this subsidy.

That's a bit of simplistic way of looking at it is it not?

[Govangirl]

That's a bit of simplistic way of looking at it is it not?

The truth is often simple, Ranald. Scotland would suffer in not receiving this subsidy, it's that simple. Right now, it enables them to provide benefits that England do not receive and why not take from a government that has bled you dry for centuries? As I've pointed out earlier, the SNP policy is very clever and it's giving its people what it needs. Why does Scotland wish to change that?

[Malky]

Horse, under the Barnett Formula,the annual Westminster subsidies to Scotland will disappear and last year this amounted to £11.3 billion. This is a £2,200-per-person subsidy. The Holyrood Parliament in Edinburgh will be forced to make severe cuts in public services without this subsidy.

As far as I understand it, the Barnett formula is used to allocate UK public money. That money is raised through the various taxes on all the residents of the UK, not just England. As a result of the formula, Scottish residents currently receive over £1400 per head more than their English counterparts and the figure is even higher for Northern Ireland residents.

The Barnett formula was originally introduced to bring the wealth of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland into line with England. It was based on population figures and in Scotland it recognised the greater rurality and poor health and housing as key factors in Scotland's lower per capita income figures.

As time has progressed, this has led to a disparity especially in recent years as public money is allocated by country and is not based on need. For instance, the North of England is a much poorer region than the borders of Scotland but the Barnett formula doesn't take this into account. I can understand why those in England feel they are getting a raw deal with the Barnett formula but it is up to government ministers to change it or scrap it.

Govangirl, if the Barnett formula disappeared, Scotland would still get an allocation of public money - it wouldn't get nothing. Also, when you talk of Scotland having benefits that England doesn't have, it is up to the Scottish Executive to spend their allocated money where they think it will have the most benefit. If that means free eye tests, etc then so be it.

Perhaps the fairest thing would be for Scotland to collect and keep all the proceeds of income tax, corporation tax and VAT raised in Scotland, and to take a share of North Sea oil revenues (given that most of the oil is off Scottish shores anyway). I'm pretty sure all spending by the devolved government north of the border could be financed this way. That would make the Scottish Executive much more responsible for their public spending and get away from being seen as "going cap-in-hand" to Westminster for funds.

Malky

[Govangirl]

Govangirl, if the Barnett formula disappeared, Scotland would still get an allocation of public money - it wouldn't get nothing. Also, when you talk of Scotland having benefits that England doesn't have, it is up to the Scottish Executive to spend their allocated money where they think it will have the most benefit. If that means free eye tests, etc then so be it.
Malky

I agree with you Malky!!!! As I've said previously, the Scottish Exec are spending their money on what is right - on what I always voted Labour to do for its people before I was sold down the river Clyde by Blair and his cronies. I LOVE the fact that Scotland is getting these 'benefits' (aka rights) so more power to their elbow.

Perhaps the fairest thing would be for Scotland to collect and keep all the proceeds of income tax, corporation tax and VAT raised in Scotland, and to take a share of North Sea oil revenues (given that most of the oil is off Scottish shores anyway). I'm pretty sure all spending by the devolved government north of the border could be financed this way. That would make the Scottish Executive much more responsible for their public spending and get away from being seen as "going cap-in-hand" to Westminster for funds.

Malky

I don't disagree with this either - I'm just saying that Scotland would get more under a United Kingdom. I don't think the 'cap-in-hand image is there anymore either. Really, I'm not promoting Westminster in any way but I think Scotland is in a much greater position now than ever.

[ionnsaigh]

Govangirl,
Reminds me of a visit to Edinburgh Zoological Gardens - and a debate on the Food Industry , ( battery farming ).
I spent my time - wondering that if the animals in captivity where unhappy or otherwise.
It could be reasonably argued that these creatures enjoyed - a reasonable existence - in terms of food and life expectancy.
If these caged creatures where released into the wild - they would undoubtedly fair less better. The price to be paid was their freedom. However it could reasonably argued - what you have never had - you will never miss. I don't agree with this analysis.
McDonald's the fast food industries leader in gunk - employed a Psychologist . He used a similar premise - the battery chickens never knew any better. The opposing view was that chickens enjoy sunshine they sunbathe - the appear to dig about in the dirt etc.
This argument could have been further enforced - when one considers - the positive effects sunshine has on Humans. Apart from the obvious psychological impact of feeling better - in conjunction to vitamin production. Perhaps the time has come to let the caged creatures go - their fate uncertain and conditions unfavourable - however unlike the battery chicken or the caged bear - these creatures have Freedom.

[Govangirl]

You've no doubt hit it on the head there Ionns - if anything is going to sway the Scots, it won't be money or benefits or financial constraints, it will be their unquenchable desire for FREEDOM!!!!

[ionnsaigh]

Govangirl , Aye just a pity - that you should not be entitled to vote.

[ionnsaigh]

I remain pretty well convinced that the vote - if any - should be limited to all those living in Scotland - regardless of race. I also think that 16 year olds should be allowed the vote. Bring it on

[Wee Toon Ajax]

Nice wee article in yesterday's sunday times from a report prepared by Grant Thornton, the accountants, so no government bias showing.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/b ... 954031.ece

Shame our wonderful non-aligned Scottish press never picked up on it.

Blows the subsidy junkies myth clean out the water - Scotland only country to have found oil in its territorial land and got poorer since it's discovery.

[ionnsaigh]

Hear hear.