The Kintyre Forum

March 15, 2008 by will shetterly

1. He is not a pacifist. Though the CIA-supported rebels in Tibet began fighting in the mid-1950s, he did not tell them to stop until 1974, after the CIA cut off their funding. As recently as 2005, he said, “The Iraq war—it’s too early to say, right or wrong.”

2. He is not egalitarian. He said, “It is a good thing to be rich… Those are the fruits for deserving actions, the proof that they have been generous in the past.” And, “There is no good reason to become bitter and rebel against those who have property and fortune.”

3. He lied about Tibet under the Dalai Lamas. Though 95 percent of the people were slaves owned by monasteries and nobles, he claimed, “the pervasive influence of Buddhism amid the wide open spaces of an unspoiled environment resulted in a society dedicated to peace and harmony. We enjoyed freedom and contentment.”

4. He lies about China’s actions in Tibet. Though the official census before military conflict with China began was barely more than 1.2 million (to be exact, 1,274,000), he claims “more than 1.2 million Tibetans are dead as a result of the Chinese occupation.”

5. He is not a vegetarian; he loves to eat veal and pheasant.

6. He shoots his air rifle at hawks. He said, “I often feed small birds, but when they come together, hawks spot them and catch them — a very bad thing. So in order to protect these small birds, I keep the air rifle.”

Sources: Michael Parenti’s Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth, Peter Hessler’s Tibet Through Chinese Eyes, Nancy Stohs’ Dalai Lama digs into veal, pheasant, Claudia Dreifus’ New York Times Interview with the Dalai Lama, and An Interview with His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

Ionnsaigh, are you trying to say that that the Dalai Lama is a hypocrite?

ionnsaigh wrote:5. He is not a vegetarian; he loves to eat veal and pheasant.

So what? It isn't a requirement of Bhuddism.

Dalai Lama. has for decades been in the payment of the CIA. The Tibetan exiled community receiving $1.7 million a year from the CIA. The Dalia Lama received a personal fortune of $186 thousand a year. Indian intelligence also contributed greatly. Financier George Soros also contributed to the vast wealth.
Michael Parenti political archive " In April 1999, along with Margaret Thatcher, Pope John Paul II, and the first George Bush, the Dalai Lama called upon the British government to release Augusto Pinochet, the former fascist dictator of Chile and a longtime CIA client who was visiting England. The Dalai Lama urged that Pinochet not be forced to go to Spain where he was wanted to stand trial for crimes against humanity".

Tibet: From Brutal Theocracy to Socialist Liberation to Capitalist Nightmare


The communist revolution led by Mao Tsetung liberated China in 1949. Before this, Tibet (located in the remote, far western part of China) was ruled by a feudal Buddhist theocracy—headed by the Dalai Lama—that brutally exploited and suppressed the people. Most land suitable for farming was owned by high-ranking lamas (Buddhist clerics) and non-Lamaist aristocracy. Fewer than 700 of these top monks and other secular feudal lords controlled 93 percent of the land and wealth.

Most of the people in Tibet’s rural areas were serfs who were bonded for life to the top monks and secular aristocracy. The feudal owners dictated what crops the serfs could grow, and then took most of the harvested grain while driving the peasants ever deeper into debt. They demanded unpaid forced labor from the serfs and subjected them to onerous taxes, like taxes on newborn children. Girls were often taken from serf families to serve as servants for the aristocrats, and many boys were forced into monasteries to be trained as monks. (Accounts of pre-1949 Tibet can be found, among other works, in A. Tom Grunfeld, The Making of Modern Tibet, M.E. Sharpe, 1996; Anna Louise Strong, Tibetan Interviews, Peking New World Press, 1929; Michael Parenti, “Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth,” July 7, 2003, swans.com)

Taxing unpaid labour? That's going a bit far, that is. Let me guess, Ionns, without googling. You've culled carefully selected anti-Dalai Lama
articles of dubious authenticity from the 'net, and presented them here in an effort to justify China's actions in Tibet?

I bet for tibetan peasants it's a case of "meet the new boss, same as the old boss", except a lot harsher.

Despite nature being unkind, and treating all creatures as sacrificial straw dogs, most people do want greater social justice. But if you go carrying
pictures of Chairman Mao you won't be achieving that end. I personally would rather read the thoughts of Wang Wei than those of that particular
dead red fascist.

Keep left.

hugh, Oh - you are such an old romantic.

A Green Stream

I have sailed the river of yellow flowers
Bourne by the channel of the green stream
rounding ten thousand turns through the mountains
on a journey of less than thirty miles
Rapids hum over heaped rocks
but where light grows dim in the thick pines
The surface of an inlet sways with nut horns
and weeds are lush along the banks
Down in my heart I have always been as pure
As this limpid water is
Oh to remain on a broad flat rock
And to cast a fishing line forever.
Wang Wei

Glad about that last line - otherwise it would have had me - hook line and sinker . Chinese Uncle Tom.
Pre- Communist Tibet was a hellhole. Check it out mate.
Stay left.

Old??

Anyhoo, Wang Wei's poetry's beautifully evocative, even in translation, which is just as well - 'cos otherwise I wouldn't be able to understand a word of it. You don't seriously believe Chinese occupation is going to enhance Tibetan peasant life, do you?

There's left, there's extreme left and there's so far left it's almost identical to the extreme right. I don't think there was too much difference between the effects of Pinochet's or Mao's regimes on the poor of their respective countries; oppression is all extremists bring. (although, what
happened to Allende was wrong, I'll agree with you there.) I don't know that much about the current situation in Tibet, political "information" is
so often spun far beyond any semblance of truth that it's impossible to tell what's going on. But I bet Tibetan peasants aren't expecting to reap
any benefits from the occupation anytime soon.

Keep left-ish.

hugh, since the autonomous regions liberation in 1951.
Health care. The average life expectancy of Tibetan people has increased from 35.5 years before Tibets democratic reform in 1959 to now.
Death in childbirth figures fell from 5,000 in every 100,000 pregnant women before 1950 to 247.49 now.
Tibet now has 1,343 medical institutions employing 9,095 medical workers. Among them, 4,270 have licenses to practise medicine. The rate of hospital beds and medical staff per 1,000 people has reached 2.64 and 3.2, respectively. According to the regional health department, 100 percent of farmers and herders are covered by the medical care system.
Education. there was no public education in the old Tibet - less than Two percent of children had access. illiteracy was over 95%. So far, the enrollment rate in primary schools, junior high schools, senior high school, and higher-learning institutes have reached 98.2 percent, 90.7 percent, 42.96 percent and 17.4 percent, respectively. The illiteracy rate among work-aged people dropped to 4.76 percent.

Transportation, post and telecommunications, communications: There was no road in old Tibet. Last year, there were 48,611 kilometers of roads open for traffic in the region, which were 3,798 kilometers longer than the record in 2006. There were no modern communications available in old Tibet. However, by the end of last year, the number of subscribers for both fixed phones and mobile phones registered 1.44 million, 155,200 more than the year-ago figure. The telephone access rate post 52 in every 100 people.

Culture: China has earmarked 700 million yuan (100 million U.S. dollars) from the state budget for preservation of cultural relics in Tibet. Over 4,000 religious spots have been preserved and open to public. The budget for the purpose this year was set at 570 million yuan (81 million U.S. dollars), which will be used for preservation work at 22 cultural sites. Among 4,000 cultural workers in art troupes and institutions, 90 percent are Tibetans, a large number of whom are young talents.
Editor: Mu Xuequan.
"There's left, there's extreme left and there's so far left it's almost identical to the extreme right".
If you substitute right for left - then one can be so far right - it's almost identical to the extreme left.
So what does that tell us?. Other than both positions are relative to a central position. As the centre fluctuates depending on who has political power, at that given time. The more right wing a government becomes - then the accepted legal opposition - changes it's stance to accommodate the change. It itself becomes right wing.
Look at the speeches made by various labour leaders - they have as time goes by - diluted the ethos and principles - to such an extent that it becomes contrary to the beliefs of it's original founders. The bible could be used as a concrete example of this phenomenon. Yet again the same can be said for Marx and Mao. However unlike the book of superstitious nonsense - The philosophy of Marx and Engels, emphasised the developmental nature of philosophy. In other words Dialectic Materialism was in itself - in the process of change and development. Not so much a final example - as the holy books strive to achieve through fear - and it's bed partner ignorance. Rather, a starting point that includes an interpretation of history and science, with the core objective - of social justice for all inhabitants of Earth.
Left right, left right, quick march.

Ionns.

Still haven't googled, so haven't any facts or stats to go with. Those figures you have produced are very impressive, and would seeem to show
massive improvements in living conditions....but are they believable? If they're from solely Chinese sources might they not just be propaganda,
or even just plain lies. War is based on deception, as Sun Tzu said. Is there no way we could hear the voice of "the average Tibetan peasant" (if
there is such a thing)? Maybe he or she would tell a different story.

Keep right on to the end of the road, turn left at the traffic lights.

hugh,
Sun Tzu was correct about - war is based on deception. Dalai Lama has been receiving funding from the CIA.
The Free Tibet campaign - are a similar bunch of misguided middle class erseholes - used in the propaganda war against Communism. Maybe we could both travel through Tibet by train - or is that a figment of Chinese propaganda.

Maybe while we're on that train we could ask some of the indigenous travellers if they see themselves as Tibetan or Chinese?
And maybe they could ask us why independence is imperative for Scotland but not for Tibet?

I would be the first to agree - that if Scotland get it - then so can Tibet. nae bother.

I'm loving this thread!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

hugh, How much do you think it would cost to go - could you go ? - see for ourselves. report back as forum journalists.
Hugh you knew you - made a wee assumption - just a wee wan - wan nevertheless. A know what ye thought - didn't I. Och, way can awe jump tae conclusion - efterawe a human trait.

That's a thought. From Harmony Row to the Himalayas, via the Copland Road tube train to St. Enoch's Square and then the Orient Express from the Central Station....changing for the peace train, mystery train, ghost train at various points along the route...listening to you lecturing on dialectical marxism all the way. You get the sponsorship, the spendoolas and the tickets, I'll bring my Ipod and the biggest pair of earphones I can find.

What was the assumption?