The Kintyre Forum

On my trip up to Scotland we were in Glasgow for a few days. Each visit often saddens me as I watch my hometown dying. But this time I felt I was witnessing an industrial miracle. It fairly made me happy to see Auden’s ‘glade of cranes’ towering over the Clyde in Govan and I took my children just at the right time to watch all the workers spill out the gates – fitters, welders, electricians – I’m writing a poem about it! I thought I had been transported back to 1962!!!!! Someone told me there were 300 apprentices learning their trade there. Wonderful – surely a much more useful craft than a three year media studies degree?
Now I know Ionns would argue that they’re building machines whose purpose is to wage war. I know. But this was a town and an industry given up for dead and it must be contributing hundreds of millions to the Scottish economy.
It all brought a tear to my eye and it meant that I didn’t have to stand and say to my kids, “Look, behind that wall used to be a shipyard. Your Grandpa and uncles once worked there.”

Govangirl wrote:Now I know Ionns would argue that they’re building machines whose purpose is to wage war.

Some might argue that building and having these machines is a deterrent to wars

Malky

"two dockyard maties' children,sitting on the dockyard wall,
watching their fathers doing damn all.
when they grow older , they'll be dockyard maties too,
just like their fathers,
with sweet damn all to do"
Part of a ribald song about the Clyde yards (and others) during ww11 [from 'A River Runs to War' --John D. Drummond 1960 ]

Bitter End wrote:"two dockyard maties' children,sitting on the dockyard wall,
watching their fathers doing damn all.
when they grow older , they'll be dockyard maties too,
just like their fathers,
with sweet damn all to do"
Part of a ribald song about the Clyde yards (and others) during ww11 [from 'A River Runs to War' --John D. Drummond 1960 ]

Och - I know the ships built themselves, out of the thin Govan air. What is a ribald song ?

wan thets coorse !

Of coorse -thanks end.

Beggars can't be choosers, springs to mind. Nothing wrong with a wee bit of nostalgia. It's a similar problem with environmental issues, versus jobs. Shipbuilding on the Clyde has a long and proud history. I would rather see cruise liners being built - but hey - one has to be pragmatic.
Glad you felt the way you did though - a poem no less - why don't we write one jointly - for fun.

Clatter clatter boots and cobble
curses shouts laughter boys and bikes
ghosts filter through the open in gate
the out gate where fathoms run
horns sirens hammer blows
red hot rivet dropped from heaven
sounds smells iron oxide faced men
Fair Friday the pub across the road
cheap wine already poured - lines the bar
Mary waits - bags packed - tickets bought
taxi booked for Central Station
Cal Mac awaits to board
that pre holiday argument
all aboard Campbeltown awaits.

Brilliant Ionns, mine can't compare so I'll have to work on it a bit longer. Yeah, the conflict is there and I wish too they were building liners but if anyone has to build for the Royal Navy then I'm glad it's on the Clyde. We should have British ships for the British navy. Wear, Tyne, Forth, Mersey, Belfast Lough: shipbuilding has died in all of them and like pits will be relegated to folk memory. I was wondering though - how much credit is given to Brown for getting these Clyde orders? It obviously didn't have any effect on the Glasgow East bye-election. Why is this?

Glasgow East, is a million miles away from the shipyard. I can't see any financial benefit - enjoyed by the people - in the east end of Glasgow - from these orders. The problem is neither can they.
The only visible benefit for many is the wage packet at the end of the week - Oh sure the local corner shop - might sell a few more pies and crisps - Irn Bru sales up - that's about it though.
The Glasgow East bye-election results - had more to do with ordinary people - sick to the back teeth of stagnation and poverty - and listening to the same old patronising promises from the Labour party. I suspect that not too many boys - from the schemes have apprentices working in the yards. Why I really don't know ?. It would be interesting to learn, the percentage of yard workers, from the East - who attended St -something or others school.
Touchy subject I know - I would love to have my wee sneaking suspicion proved wrong - however it has been gnawing away since the thread begun. Blue collar workers, are too few and too far between, in the chiefly catholic background - of most of
inhabitants of - Parkhead Cranhill Easterhouse Ruchazie Carntyne Barlarnock Queenslie Garthamloch Shettleson Tollcross Greenfield. Duke Street and Parkhead Cross areas are neglected eyesores. When I was a wee boy - Parkhead had United Glass Company, Babcox and Wilcox boilermakers - Sir William Arrols - the forge. Queenslie Industrial Estate provided work for thousands - Olivetti. All or most depended on, yesterdays heavy engineering. The Steel plant at Ravenscraig all down the Korean made tube. That is the beauty of a free market economy - it serves only those who employ the workers - at the lowest rate. Not in the interest of the Scottish worker - or Parkhead or Scotland for that matter - to sell their skilled labour to the lowest bidder. The market at home should be centrally planned - protecting the workers - from the negative impact of the free market.
The Labour party in Scotland sat on their fat arses - and watched these areas - and these people - degenerate. Crime figures are appallingly high, drug abuse, anti social behaviour are all to apparent. Poor health - lung disease, strokes, heart attacks, alcoholism, knife attacks - are filling the Glasgow Royal - day by bloody day. I was in Govan last night - the place looked like a ghost town. A sprinkling of wee shops and a few people. I looked over and saw those elegant cranes - and hoped for a future.

You should be in politics Ionns - and I seriously mean that. I enjoyed that but you know I'm going to pick up on a few things. I really don't think Govan is that far from Glasgow East in terms of some of the issues you discussed. Not now. Govan has been a seriously deprived area for years and it's currently the worst it has ever been. In my original post I put that Scotland would gain economically from the re-birth - not Govan. I agree it would be most interesting to see figures on apprentices and where they come from but I cannot support your sectarian view. I do not believe it's about what school they attended other than the area. But of course you're right about the death of industry in Glasgow and the sad fact that we don't 'make things' anymore.
See, I keep getting back to this so sorry if I'm getting off-thread but a huge problem is the schooling in these areas. That's where the money needs to go. I attended Govan High and it was a very successful school in my day, producing a wide range of scientists, lawyers, welders, nurses, engineers, doctors, headmasters, electricians, plumbers, typists, etc. etc - even the odd Knight of the Realm for services to football and also Tony Blair's father. But when the rot set in, so did the effect on the school. Last year I checked the League Tables ( ) for Highers and there were your successful Glasgow schools enjoying high percentages. Languishing at the bottom was Govan High - 0%. I wept, no kidding.
The figures for Glasgow East are more than shocking, you are right. I don't know what the answer is. But again, it probably needs less of the 'fat-arsed' politicians you describe and more of the passionate East-born revolutionary - which brings me back to my first sentence on this post. Have you ever considered it?

And your last poetic sentence brought a tear to my eye, honestly.

Been there - done it - less than 40 votes. Gardyloo.

GP explains life expectancy gap

The World Health Organisation report which highlighted a 28-year gap in life expectancy around the Glasgow area was not news to Dr Robert Jamieson.

For the past 21-years he has been a GP in Calton, which the report states has an average male life expectancy of 54.

This is in contrast to nearby Lenzie, East Dunbartonshire, where the figure rises to 82.

Dr Jamieson said the statistics reflect the "chronic" social and medical problems that affect Calton.

He told BBC Scotland that the figures quoted in the WHO report had been known in Scotland for some time.

"In Abercromby Street, where my practice is, the average male life expectancy is about 53 years old," he said.

"There is a high incidence of mental illness like depression, which leads to a number of organic problems.

One of the postal sectors here has the lowest income in the UK. That means people have less money to spend on basics like food, clothes and travel to work
Dr Robert Jamieson
Bridgeton Health Centre
"It's not surprising that we see more cases of heart disease, stroke, diabetes, asthma and bronchitis than areas like Lenzie."

Dr Jamieson said the reasons behind the deep-rooted health problems in Calton were numerous and complex but poverty played a major part.

"One of the postal sectors here has the lowest income in the UK," he said.

"That means people have less money to spend on basics like food, clothes and travel to work.

"This is made worse by other social problems like poor housing and community safety.

"The area also has serious problems with gang and knife culture, and of course drug and alcohol abuse, which are colossal contributors to early death."

Lasting change

Dr Jamieson believes that breaking this cycle won't be easy and requires action from individuals as well as a "top-down" approach from central and local government.

But he has seen reasons for hope and believes lasting change can be achieved.

He said: "Over the last two or three years we've had more and more patients asking for help to stop smoking,"

"That's great and we do all we can to help, but there are other things which government can do.

"In recent times we have dealt with advertising of cigarettes and then with smoking in public places.

"But I believe that advertising for alcohol and junk-food should also be tackled."

Dr Jamieson said these multi-million pound industries were giving people "false information" about products which are detrimental to their health.

"If we can get more genuine information about food which helps people make better choices then we're a step closer to real change."
Story from BBC NEWS:

Well, that certainly cheered me up this morning!

Yes, depressing and shocking statistics there, Ionns. Take away the area and you'd think it was about a third world country. If it were London, there would be alarms ringing, sirens blaring and resources getting pumped in big time.

But those cranes still gave me hope. The Clyde is no longer dead. Long live the Clyde!