Poverty research needs you!

[bill]

Oh and Ionns,I think a devil's advocate would only complicate matters,but thanks for your concern.

[Bobbie En Tejas]

haha, bill! I knew your wife was coming along.. sheesh, I wasn't propositioning you! Let us know the results of your investigation

[deirdreh]

Maybe it is the definition of poverty that bothers me. I don't consider people who eat every day and have warmth and a roof over their head to be poverty stricken just because there are other things they want, but can't afford, or, as Sweltered and others in this thread have said, have other priorities instead of taking care of their basic needs. I also dislike it when there is real poverty in the world, and people cry poverty because they don't have everything their neighbors have. Thank god we don't live in Darfur.

Dierdre, you said "poverty is demoralising, destabilising, and destructive." I think that depends on the people involved. There are multitudes of people who were brought up in humble means who are good people, who learned early to roll with the punches, who learned coping skills, who learned that "things" are not what makes life valuable, who weren't destroyed, but made stronger, and have made successful lives for themselves.

Hi Bobbie

I understand your view about different types of poverty. There is a world of difference between the absolute terror and poverty of living in a camp in Darfur in Absolute Poverty and being Relatively Poor in our society. I would not say that any people in the UK live in Absolute Poverty. It is important to recognise that difference.

I think the difficulty of comparing the Relative Poverty of, say, 50 years ago to today is that the culture and expectation of our society has changed enormously. My 10 year old daughter cannot image a world without the PS2, Internet or 24 hour tv. None of these existed when I was wee in the 1970s. Nowadays young people live in a world with more choices but with also more uncertainty and expectations. After WWII I think people thought about new opportunities opening up for them and possibilities: a job for life, free education, free health, state owned affordable power and transport.

Nowadays young people who achieve at school will end up paying for their education and be burdened with debt. They are then expected to get married, have lots of kids, earn lots of money, and get lots more credit to live throwaway, aspirational lifestyles. On top of this they are expected to pay for the older generation's pensions and for their own, not to mention buying in to the housing market at mortgages four or five times their salary. Even people who rent are affected by higher rents for higher costing properties.

For those who are not academic, have literacy difficulties, or don't have friends and family at higher education the situation may be worse as they still want to live the same aspirational lifestyle but have limited access to any apprenticeship system to give them a chance to contribute to society and gain their self esteem. I think in days gone by some people would have been given an opportunity by a relative or friend of the family who lived nearby but that works less so in housing estates where those under the most life pressures are put together, and are often less likely to be working. Statistically the biggest reason for family break ups is money worries.

It is not surprising that so many want to be celebrities and get their aspirations without earning it. People are growing up on large scale, poorly built and designed housing environments, unlike previous developments that were well made, grew organically, and designed and focussed on people working and living in extended family groups. They are going to school with people often of a similar situation, who may also not have much expectation of progressing out of their situation.

Relative Poverty, in my opinion, used to be to people in your community, but now it is the global community as the media is global and ever present. It is a huge pressure for young people who grow up to be the future adults of our society. How likely is it that for a child growing up in a drugs saturated, poorly designed housing estate, sometimes attending a local 'sink' school that they are going to live the Paris Hilton lifestyle? Not likely I think. But that is very often the apiration.

It would seem to me that the current consumer culture is fuelled by the child targeted advertisements on tv, in schools, in cinemas, on the Internet and on clothes labelled. This happens from the moment a child is born.

As you said some people manage to roll with the punches and do very well, but I think that nowadays the rules are ever changing, and more people are finding it harder to cope, hence the rise in drug and alcohol abuse. There are a lot of really nice and intelligent people whose lives are being wasted as they cannot cope in our current consumer culture.

[Sweltered]

Ever thought of saying no to the children ?

[deirdreh]

Don't worry I do - much to my children's displeasure.

The advertisers don't call advertising direct to children 'pester power' for nothing.

[Sweltered]

Luckily my kids learned very quickly that I 'm immune to that....

[ionnsaigh]

Give me three grains of corn,
Mother.
Only three grains of corn
It will keep the little life I have
Till the coming of the morn.
I am dying of hunger and cold
Mother.
Dying of hunger and cold
And half the agony of such a death
My lips have never told
I dreamed of bread in my sleep
Mother
And the sight was heaven to see
I awoke with an eager, famishing
lip,
But you had no bread for me.

Amelia Blanford Edwards

[Sweltered]

Some haw meat but canna eat
Some wud eat but want it
But we hae meat
and we can eat
So let the (insert imaginary deity) be thankit

Robert Burns (paraphrased)

[Bobbie En Tejas]

Ionns, no one is trying to keep food out of children's mouths.

I somehow reminded of the old saying, “Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish; and you have fed him for a lifetime" Just a random thought.

[ionnsaigh]

Ionns, no one is trying to keep food out of children's mouths.

I somehow reminded of the old saying, “Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish; and you have fed him for a lifetime" Just a random thought.

Bobbie, In order to meet intellectual need ( Maslov ) - one requires to satisfy hunger needs.

Too weak to work
Nobel prize-winning economist -Robert Fogel - has pointed out that hungry people cannot work their way out of poverty. He estimates that 20 per cent of the population in England and France - was effectively excluded from the labour force around 1790 because they were too weak and hungry to work.
Improved nutrition, he calculates accounted for about half of the economic growth in Britain and France between 1790 and 1880.
Since many developing countries are as poor as Britain and France were in 1790 - his analysis suggests reducing hunger could have a similar impact in developing countries today. Hina Shahid.
Just a random thought .

[ionnsaigh]

Some haw meat but canna eat
Some wud eat but want it
But we hae meat
and we can eat
So let the (insert imaginary deity) be thankit

Robert Burns (paraphrased)

So Burns, recognised starvation - and man's inhumanity to man - he knew the value of a full stomach - and the agony of an empty stomach - and was thankful - so what is the point ?.

[Sweltered]

It's not the 16th century.

[ionnsaigh]

It's not the 16th century.

It's not the 16th century - however the unequal distribution of wealth - it's twin manifestations of - the comparative few having more than enough - starkly contrasted with the multitude of poor - who by their definition don't.
It never fails to bring forth feelings of despair - at what appears - the couldn't care less attitude towards the dreadful plight of the World's poor.
Time and time again - these self defence barriers - which to the causal observer appear - either in one or two categories - that of denial - that poverty exists - or if recognised blamed on the afflicted.
Och well, I suppose - at the end of the day - the history and nature of discussion - linked to the developmental origin of debate - is in itself - a positive position.
Two sides - polar opposites - antagonistic contradictions . However qualitatively both sides of the same spectrum.

All things change in terms of quality - by quantitative measure - for example . take water as a example of a qualitative - take temperature as a quantitative - by adding or subtracting temperature - we observe a qualitative change taking place - Ice and steam are qualitatively different. However they share a common base line - chiefly water. When you apply an economic perspective to the problem water - poverty and overt abundance - are self evident - in terms of drought and flood - when the objective is merely to quench thirst.

[bill]

Okay, after reading all the comments, especially from Ionns,about the plight of the worlds poor I have decided to get up off my backside and do something about it.

I read in the paper that Tenerife bar staff are paid miserly wages, and are living below the poverty line. Therefore I have decided to go and investigate,interview staff and owners.I have decided it is about time I put something back instead of taking all the time.

Accompanied by my wife we shall fly out to Tenerife the 3rd week of January,and shall endevour to visit as many bars as is possible, and interview said bar staff.

I know I will not change the way things are in Tenerife,but possibly the odd Euro tip here and there might make a difference.

I shall report my findings on my return.

Getting close to my fact finding mission to check the conditions of Tenerife's underpaid bar staff.I shall endevour to visit as many drinking establishments as is possible in the time given,so as to compile an accurate report on my return.

[general jack o'niell]

don't rub it in, unless its factor 25, i reckon that nose is prone to peeling!!!!