Council Services - budget cuts

Forum publicising and discussing local issues and news in general.

Re: Council Services - budget cuts

Postby John S » Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:18 pm

Hi Asymetric, sorry to keep you waiting :D

Asymetric wrote:Thanks for your prompt reply John S.


I understand that political parties will have agreement on how to vote as they will meet and vote on the policies they put forward etc, but are you saying that a group of Councillors meet before meetings and employ tactical voting when an item is yet to be discussed? If so then what is the point of the meetings and how can others outwith the group influence anything?


No, not tactical voting, but final checking of papers coming forward. In the SNP group; because we play a full role in and support the consensus politics generally adopted in the council, we already have a significant insight into the papers coming forward as we have been involved in their development as they pass through committees. We are not all on the same committees so it is beneficial to check around members that the policy being formulated sits well across the council area and with the policy direction of the SNP Group.

The point of having meetings is to hear the views of all members who wish to express views and adjust, reject or approve the item up for discussion. This regularly happens – the leader of the opposition often picks up on areas to change. It seems to me that Argyll First does not attend Executive Meetings and have all but abandoned their involvement in policy formulation in favour of guerrilla tactics in the media and internet. That is their choice but it does not sit well with the other members who are left doing all the work on committees.

Another thing which has annoyed me is how a proposed 10% pay cut for Councillors can be seen to be self serving? With the impending cuts in public spending and job losses/pay reductions throughout Argyll & Bute Council, I personally think it is a noble and refreshing proposition and was surprised to read that our elected members were not willing to share some of the burden being put on the rest of the employees in Argyll & Bute Council and beyond. Many people are going to be losing their jobs and having their salaries reduced but for the vast majority of Councillors to class sharing some of the burden facing families in Argyll and Bute as a 'self serving motion' is a slap in the face to those families looking at unemployment and reduced salaries.


Argyll First’s proposal was not for a hard pay cut, but to enable councillors to volunteer a 10% pay cut – this is something that Councillors could do prior to this motion anyway - so what purpose did the motion serve? – I suggest it served as a publicity stunt for Argyll First and to embarrass councillors who, for whatever reason, could not afford to do it. Remember the basic salary for Councillors is about £16,000 and for some that is there only source of income.

The whole reason behind the changes in remuneration for councillors which were applied nationally in 2007 was to make being a councillor a salaried position to encourage more normal people to become councillors. The motion would undermine that priciple. I could never have stood if this change had not occurred. Previously only individuals with alternative income sources could consider becoming a councillor which led to councils being full of councillors who were retired, wealthy, or could only give a part time commitment to the job.

Will I volunteer to give up 10% of my salary? Well I could say what I volunteer to do with my income is no more your business than what I spend it on in Tescos. But I’ll say no - I won’t, and I won’t support any proposal to impose wage cuts on any employee of Argyll & Bute Council for budgetary reasons.

I noticed that the Leader of Argyll First was able to cut and paste part of this thread into an email, its a shame he didn't take the time to join up and discuss the issues.

Perhaps the question he will answer is when will Argyll First give a full-time commitment to what are full-time Jobs?
See more details of this discussion on my Facebook Case Book
https://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=168869009687
John S
Can't Stay Away
Can't Stay Away
 
Posts: 706
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2005 8:02 pm
Location: Campbeltown


Re: Council Services - budget cuts

Postby John S » Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:59 pm

mary wrote:This is a question I asked earlier but received no credible answer. As he is Chair of the CHORD project, perhaps we could have some answers from John S and a full explanation, or even better a look at the accounts? And no, I haven't gone off topic - this is another issue that spans more than one thread!

This is on Forargyll website today:

"So what HAS happened to the CHORD cash?
newsroom published this on 4:55 pm, Thursday, 16th September, 2010
Community News| Local Government| Regeneration | Comments (rss) | Respond | Ping |


Today’s Oban Times has a front page article whose opening paragraph says: ‘Cash-strapped Argyll and Bute Council will have to borrow the £30 million allocated to pay for Argyll’s CHORD programme’.

The point being made is that there is no pot available to pay for the waterfront regeneration projects adopted by the Council for each of the five major towns: Campbeltown, Helensburgh, Oban, Rothesay and Dunoon. With no reserves left, these projects are to be funded by ‘prudential borrowing’.

But borrowing was always openly in the frame, for £7 million of the total.

The question now is, with the Oban Times quoting a total figure of £30 million to be borrowed, what has happened to the money that was already set aside in the capital budget for the portion of the total not be achieved through loans?"

Time for some answers - shouldn't be too difficult!


In very simple terms the money is to be borrowed because that is how councils finance capital expenditure (unless its covered by grant). There are reasons/explanations for this:

Unlike companies Councils have no share capital so the only realistic opportunity to access large sums of money to finance capital investment is by borrowing.

Funding capital investment by borrowing and repaying that borrowing over the useful life of the asset/investment means that the cost of the repayments are being met from the taxes of the service users/people who benefit from that asset/investment over its life.

If councils were unable to borrow and had to rely on reserves to finance capital expenditure this would mean council tax would need to be raised and set over a number of years to build up a fund for investment rather than being spent on day to day services – this would also mean that current tax payers were paying for the assets that would benefit future service users tax payers.

The CHORD projects were never to be funded from reserves. There was never a “pot” of money. When these projects were agreed it was on the same basis as any other capital project. The Council in constructing its capital plan had set aside an amount for CHORD from within the overall capital plan which was based on an estimate of what further borrowing it could incur and then service(repay) and the estimated levels of capital grant. The overall “CHORD” funding was made up as follows:

In essence the capital plan does not create a pot of money to fund investment but identifies the projects the Council plans to spend its capital budget on and that capital budget is funded from capital grant and borrowing.

What is happening with CHORD is absolutely in line with how the Council funds investment in school refurbishment, roads reconstruction and other capital projects.

I will have to dig out what expenditure has taken place against the Campbeltown Project allocation, but it is approved againse a full business case the public documents are available on line. Will get back to you Mary. :D
See more details of this discussion on my Facebook Case Book
https://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=168869009687
John S
Can't Stay Away
Can't Stay Away
 
Posts: 706
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2005 8:02 pm
Location: Campbeltown


Re: Council Services - budget cuts

Postby Isa » Fri Sep 17, 2010 8:08 pm

John, I read that Scotland is to be hit really badly because of the cuts, can you say what you think will be the most major change that will affect us here in Kintyre ?
Isa
Active Poster
Active Poster
 
Posts: 263
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:45 pm


Re: Council Services - budget cuts

Postby John S » Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:01 pm

Hi Isa, I think it will be different things for different people. No part of the services provided by the council is likely to remain as they are. It’s totally unprecedented times we live in and all need to work together to get through it. The whole point of starting this thread was to try and collect views and ideas mirroring consultations going on across the council area, but it’s been hijacked a wee bit :@ What are the important things for you Isa?
See more details of this discussion on my Facebook Case Book
https://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=168869009687
John S
Can't Stay Away
Can't Stay Away
 
Posts: 706
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2005 8:02 pm
Location: Campbeltown


Re: Council Services - budget cuts

Postby Isa » Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:49 pm

John, I don't know this for certain but over the last few years the NHS appears to be offloading what I see as its resposibilities. Closing the Calton Hospital, the Witchburn and recently the Bengulion ward all meant that the burden for the care of the elderly was pushed more and more onto the Social work which is a strain on the council and my council tax. More people to look after means more staff for us to pay. If I am right why should the council have to take this burden because NHS managers can't manage their own budget?

I know I'll get sleighted for this but there are too many primary schools in Kintyre. A luxury that the taxpayers cannot afford.?

What's important to me?........ I want my bins lifted every week.
Last edited by Isa on Sat Sep 18, 2010 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
Isa
Active Poster
Active Poster
 
Posts: 263
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:45 pm


Re: Council Services - budget cuts

Postby James » Sat Sep 18, 2010 9:01 am

The Council Spokesperson for the Third Sector, Councillor John Semple said "...Argyll First does not attend Executive Meetings ..." I would understand why they wouldn't because as second class councillors in a two tier democracy they can not particaipate in that decision making process.
This thread illustrates beautifully the Administration/Establishment approach to constructive criticism or a better approach in the interests of our constituents - attack, misdirection and self-justification. It is the smuggness inherent in the cosy self-serving consensus that it broaches no public opposition to its pre-determined view of the world. Argyll First may be having to learn the brutal political realities of taking on the established order but it is positive that a principled and democratic opposition has emerged at Argyll & Bute Council. I am sure the campaign to undermine and discredit it will continue apace.
It still remains for all councillors to have equal participation and voting rights in the decision making process. If the Council Leader were serious about inclusivity and yes, acccountability when A&BC close schools and care homes and make children walk dangerous routes to schoool he would agree. It seem however the Establishment is never wrong and is never assured enough to admit that when it is, it can change its position.
Councillor James Robb
James
Too Shy To Talk Much
Too Shy To Talk Much
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:54 am


Re: Council Services - budget cuts

Postby John S » Sat Sep 18, 2010 9:42 am

James, if you would do me the favour of returning to my very first post, and I'd hope the moderator of this thread would note this thread asks some questions about the budget.

You along with every other member of this council will be able to speak and vote on the issues you have just described as they will come to a full council meeting, if you want to influence these things there will be ample opportunity to do so through a series of seminars. You know that ! so why do you persist in peddling Argyll First's misinformation and distrust if it isn’t to undermine the council and get personal publicity?
See more details of this discussion on my Facebook Case Book
https://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=168869009687
John S
Can't Stay Away
Can't Stay Away
 
Posts: 706
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2005 8:02 pm
Location: Campbeltown


Re: Council Services - budget cuts

Postby Asymetric » Sat Sep 18, 2010 7:23 pm

Thanks for your reply John S.

Can you tell me though why you are so set against every Councillor having the right to vote on every issue?
Had you not been on the Executive Committee, would you not feel that your influence with respect to representing your constituents would be restricted?
Asymetric
The Quiet Type
The Quiet Type
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:06 pm


Re: Council Services - budget cuts

Postby John S » Sat Sep 18, 2010 7:44 pm

I'm not so set against it, as you say, what i am so set against is the attempt to destabilise the council at a time when all councillors should be working together in the face of the difficult times ahead. I am pleased that only 4 out of 32 councillors supported the motion to abolish the Executive Committee.

Why do you think the vote was so overwhelmingly against the proposal Asymeteric?
See more details of this discussion on my Facebook Case Book
https://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=168869009687
John S
Can't Stay Away
Can't Stay Away
 
Posts: 706
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2005 8:02 pm
Location: Campbeltown


Re: Council Services - budget cuts

Postby mary » Sat Sep 18, 2010 8:17 pm

I fail to see why you see this as an attempt to de-stabilise the council! That is paranoia! This discussion is only an attempt,supported by a great many of the electorate, as far as I can ascertain, to explore whether we can have a more democratic approach to the way decisions are made. As I see it, from a local point of view, we are under-represented at present when the important decisions are made - that is how I personally feel!
User avatar
mary
Happy Camper
Happy Camper
 
Posts: 82
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 9:36 am
Location: campbeltown


Re: Council Services - budget cuts

Postby James » Sun Sep 19, 2010 9:04 am

To the Council Spokesperson, Councillor Semple.
I believe the case that the Executive is undemocratic and results in a two tier system has been made. I make substantive points, the response is attacks on me or Argyll First and our motives. It again illustrates beautifully the Establishments intolerance of anything other than the cosy consensus.
As for the budget I will wait to see the Establisment's proposals but in general I support the SNP position of a presumption against closing vital rural schools and no Council Tax increases.
Councillor James Robb
James
Too Shy To Talk Much
Too Shy To Talk Much
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:54 am


Re: Council Services - budget cuts

Postby Asymetric » Mon Sep 20, 2010 11:20 am

John S wrote:I'm not so set against it, ..................................... I am pleased that only 4 out of 32 councillors supported the motion.....

Why do you think the vote was so overwhelmingly against the proposal Asymeteric?


To be honest I cannot fathom why it was so overwhelmingly voted against, when you yourself indicate that you are not so set against it. It all seems very strange to be honest.
Asymetric
The Quiet Type
The Quiet Type
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:06 pm


Re: Council Services - budget cuts

Postby Nancie » Mon Sep 20, 2010 6:07 pm

This is beginning to have all the hallmarks of a witchhunt.

We are having a debate now re Argyll First and not budget cuts and I am finding it very tedious.

Is anyone actually moderating this thread?
Nancie
Quite a Regular
Quite a Regular
 
Posts: 227
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 12:21 am


Re: Council Services - budget cuts

Postby Asymetric » Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:10 pm

Nancie wrote:This is beginning to have all the hallmarks of a witchhunt.

We are having a debate now re Argyll First and not budget cuts and I am finding it very tedious.

Is anyone actually moderating this thread?


I don't believe the discussion on this thread is not relevant to the impending budget cuts, quite the opposite infact. With the forecasted cuts facing Argyll & Bute, I for one believe it is vital that we have all our Councillors representing us when decisions are made, including decisions outwith the budget, as I feel that decisions made for further afield in our Argyll & Bute will have repurcussions for Kintyre.
Asymetric
The Quiet Type
The Quiet Type
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:06 pm


Re: Council Services - budget cuts

Postby John S » Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:33 pm

Asymetric, this is the 3rd or 4th time I have said on this thread - The budget will be decided at a Full Council Meeting where all councillors are able to vote and make alternative proposals.
See more details of this discussion on my Facebook Case Book
https://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=168869009687
John S
Can't Stay Away
Can't Stay Away
 
Posts: 706
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2005 8:02 pm
Location: Campbeltown


PreviousNext

Return to Local News and Issues

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 20 guests