Blackwaterfoot to Campbeltown ferry?

[Tom B]

Was on Arran last week and there was some chat about switching the Lochranza/Claonaig ferry to a Blackwaterfoot/ Campbeltown run. Hadn't heard of this before, but thought it sounded like it could be a good idea. Who uses the Lochranza / Claonaig route anyway?! If it's mostly tourists - presumably they would be generally happy with an opportunity to drive through Kintyre as well?! - This could then also be a viable route from south central Scotland across to Campbeltown. Should we be pushing calmac for this, or has it already been discussed and discounted? - don't think there's a slip at Blackwaterfoot at the minute, but surely one could be put in at minimal cost - isn't it just a big wedge of concrete? (with apologies to all construction engineers!)

[WC1]

The Claonaig/Lochranza ferry is operated for the duration of the summer timetable only. It would certainly be a good thing for the town if it were to be replaced by a Blackwaterfoot/Campbeltown service. I imagine that would even attract 'foot passengers' for day trips, as well as drawing more people with cars into the southern part of the peninsula.

[John S]

Hi Tom,

The service from Lochranza to Claonaig is fairly well used and tourism businesses in East Kintyre do depend on it. I think, for tourism, a service from Arran to Campbeltown would do little to open up Kintyre to the central belt as the cost and time involved in a two legged trip would make it unattractive except for those currently using Lochranza to Claonaig, so in effect Campbeltown's gain could well be Carradale's loss.

Given that the Scottish Government are consulting on a service from Campbeltown to Troon or Ardrossan and feedback from the business community here was supportive of that as a direct route, I think that any change in emphasis towards Blackwaterfoot to Campbeltown would be counter productive at this point in time, except maybe as an additional passenger service.

[WC1]

Don't agree at all John. Anyone using Lochranza/Claonaig for travel to Carradale will find Blackwaterfoot/Campbeltown just as handy (and possibly better given the state of the Claonaig to Carradale road). As for opening up Kintyre to the central belt, the advantages of creating a through route for tourists into the southern part of Kintyre can only be of benefit to the whole of the peninsula, even if it is a two-stage trip. Let's face it, many of the tourists who use Lochranza/Claonaig (or vice versa) have already had or are on their way to a break on Arran anyway. Being realistic, a direct ferry from Campbeltown to Troon or Ardrossan is a non-starter. The best you can hope for is to add a Brodick/Campbeltown stage to the existing services.

[John S]

Being realistic, a direct ferry from Campbeltown to Troon or Ardrossan is a non-starter. The best you can hope for is to add a Brodick/Campbeltown stage to the existing services.

WC why do you consider it to be unrealistic ? and how have you calculated that a Brodick/Campbeltown is the best that can be hoped for? You seem to be better informed in these matters than the civil servants from the Scottish Government who are conducting the Ferry's Review who were a good deal more positive.

[argylltourist]

Just bear in mind that there are others apart from tourists who utilise the Claonaig/Lochranza route.

Having a direct ferry link to Troon etc. would enable a larger amount of visitors to Kintyre. It's an interesting avenue to

explore.

[WC1]

WC why do you consider it to be unrealistic ? and how have you calculated that a Brodick/Campbeltown is the best that can be hoped for? You seem to be better informed in these matters than the civil servants from the Scottish Government who are conducting the Ferry's Review who were a good deal more positive.

Whole variety of things in there John.

First, if there were sufficient demand to make a Campbeltown/Ardrossan service commercially viable, someone would have started it up already. You've already expressed your view on another thread ("I firmly believe there is a strong commercial case to be made for a service between Campbeltown and Ayrshire.") (http://www.kintyreforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=13382) My point is that if there were any evidence for this demand it would have been recognised by now and a service would already be operating. I don't think the Ardrossan/Brodick service operates without subsidy, and that's only provided because it's a 'life-line service'. Ardrossan/Campbeltown couldn't be defined as such. But if it needed subsidy, it couldn't be described as commercially viable anyway, thus refuting your point.

Second, I don't claim to be better informed than anyone else, other than through my long experience of living in this area and travelling to the central belt, other parts of Scotland, or down to England, over many years. I know there would be no time advantage in taking a ferry to Ayrshire as the first stage of any of those journeys. In fact. it could take longer. This summer it's £76.75 return for a car and driver from Ardrossan to Brodick and another £10.75 per passenger. What would the fares be from Ardrossan to Campbeltown. Closer to £90? maybe a bit more? So no cost benefit either. Who's going to pay that kind of money to go by ferry when it would be an awful lot cheaper to go round the road?

Third, I would be surprised, and more than a bit concerned, if civil servants carrying out a review of ferry services were anything other than completely neutral at this stage. If they're not, they findings of their review can't be in any way objective. They may not have our experience of actually travelling from Campbeltown to the central belt, but they should be able to work out the comparative costs of going 'round the road' as against the probable costs of a ferry trip. If they do, they're bound to come to the conclusion that Ardrossan/Campbeltown would not be viable.

You obviously have a different view. But this is all completely off the topic so far as this thread is concerned. I'm most certainly FOR a Blackwaterfoot to Campbeltown link.

[John S]

WC the proposals ARE for a subisidised service using RET (Road Equivalent tariff) so it would be cheaper even than the current Arran Service.

RET is a means of setting ferry fares based on the cost of travelling an equivalent distance by road. The intention behind RET is that it reduces the economic disadvantage suffered by remote communities, and that it will therefore enable them to make a bigger contribution to the economic prosperity of Scotland.

Travel times will very much dependent on the speed of the vessels but would be no more than 2 hours Campbeltown to Troon with good roads into Glasgow which is only 35 miles from Troon, there is no reason that it should be a longer journey.

[Niander]

according to google maps
Campbeltown to york is 347 miles
ardrossan to york is 234 miles

saving 113 miles
so both ways thats

a saving off 226 miles

Now say my van will do 20 miles to 1 gallon of diesel
[especially after going up that mountain]!of fuel saved = about £ 75 saved in fuel
and that horrible long winding road
and the other general wear and tear on the vehicle saved also tyres etc
and much less stressful driving to do....also possible landslides...

well then yep i would go on the ferry if there was one!
especialy if [as it should be] a subsidised service like in the hebrides then the cost could be about the same
also i like ships...
Its a no brainer for me!
if only they actually do it!

[jdcarra]

The Claonaig to Lochranza ferry issue has been a talking point amongst the Carradale residents recently and our thoughts are leave things as is or we may lose what we already have (read the ongoing review as mentioned by John S).
As for a move (Claonaig/Carradale road state) I would not make the road conditions an excuse as the Campbeltown to Carradale route is just as bad in places .
And another disadvantage, Blackwaterfoot is more exposed to the southerly/southwesterly sea conditions than Claonaig and is very shallow entering. And finally, fares will be higher with the longer crossing distance.

[russanros]

As for a move (Claonaig/Carradale road state) I would not make the road conditions an excuse as the Campbeltown to Carradale route is just as bad in places .

-did just have to have a little laugh at that, although road surfaces are a disgrace on both roads at least Campbeltown-Carradale is a decently dual aligned road and 2 vehicles (at least car size ones) can pass in most places, unlike Carradale to Claonaig which is tight on a bike, if you meet someone else in the wrong place!

fares will be higher with the longer crossing distance

-my understanding of the new Calmac fares structure is that it is not relevant to crossing distance.

If the ferry was to land in Campbeltown it would enable foot passengers to explore Kintyre using public transport, with the current landing point they need a vehicle to go anywhere other than Tarbert. I would hope that the tourist board and local council would see the opportunity here?

[Niander]

local council would see the opportunity here?

I doubt it did they ever see an opportunity with a marina?

even the pathetic one that Campbeltown has was a private enterprise!

[jdcarra]

did just have to have a little laugh at that, although road surfaces are a disgrace on both roads at least Campbeltown-Carradale is a decently dual aligned road and 2 vehicles (at least car size ones) can pass in most places, unlike Carradale to Claonaig which is tight on a bike, if you meet someone else in the wrong place!

Can you not just stick to the topic "russanoros",these technical terms (dual aligned roads ) mean nothing to us everyday Carradale road users. On the bike subject well not all motorists are at fault,some bikers can be a pain riding two or three abreast and will not move over.

If the ferry was to land in Campbeltown it would enable foot passengers to explore Kintyre using public transport, with the current landing point they need a vehicle to go anywhere other than Tarbert.

Well may be your bus company can lay on a bus route Claonaig/Carradale/Campbeltown,but then again the B842 Carradale to Claonaig is not classed as a bus route,hence we do not get the resufacing done as well as the B8001 .

[WC1]

JD - I always think it's a good idea to try and achieve the greatest good for the greatest number. On that basis, since there's potential in a Blackwaterfoot/Campbeltown link for a boost to the local economy through foot passengers as well as vehicles coming into the town, and for Carradale at least not to be disadvantaged in terms of vehicle traffic, I think the Blackwaterfoot idea merits serious consideration and a bit of further investigation.

John - Road Equivalent Tariff (originally a Labour Party idea as far back as the 1960s) is meant to help island, as against simply remote, communities, since it's based on a calculation of what the equivalent cost would be if the complete journey could be made by road rather than road and ferry. Since we have a road, unlike island communities, I don't see how a case could be made for a heavily subsidised ferry-based alternative.

[John S]

WC as the risk of going off thread, isn't it a shame that the Labour Party never managed to impliment RET in any form in all the years since 1960's ???

I have assurances that, should a route between Campbeltown and Troon be an outcome of the ferries review that RET would apply in the same way as it would to the other Clyde routes - including Tarbert /Portavadie.

There is within the ferries review explicit recognition that the remoteness of Kintyre merits special consideration -

"Given the inaccessibility of the Kintyre peninsula via road, we have looked at the potential for a new ferry route between Campbeltown and the Scottish mainland. This would be subject to two smaller vessels being introduced on the Arran route."

The case can, and I believe will be made on economic grounds. The economic benefits resulting from the establishment of the route will justify the subsidy - in exactly the way that the pilot of RET has done in the western isles.