Blackwaterfoot to Campbeltown ferry?

[Tom B]

hhmmmm, found this on Transport Scotland website. JDs concerns on having any ferry from the west of Arran might be well founded? The first sentence of paragraph 31 is intriguing - is Claonaig just the 'back door' for Arran to offload it's rubbish? and when Brodick goes to 2 smaller ferries (which presumably can take the bin lorries) - see para 29 below, it's bye bye Lochranza/ Claonaig?!

"Claonaig to Lochranza

31. Claonaig to Lochranza largely fulfils a specialist function in the movement of dangerous goods. In terms of passenger and vehicle numbers it is very much a secondary route to the Ardrossan and Brodick service - for every passenger travelling between Claonaig and Lochranza, there are around 16 passengers travelling between Ardrossan to Brodick. The figure for cars is around 9 to 1 in favour of Ardrossan to Brodick.

32. It would be our intention to review services between Claonaig and Lochranza following the upgrade to Ardrossan to Brodick.

33. In summary, our proposal is (a) for the Ardrossan to Brodick service to be upgraded to a two-vessel service operating a more frequent shuttle service through to the late evening and (b) services between Claonaig to Lochranza would be reviewed following these changes to the Ardrossan to Brodick service.

Arran

25. Arran currently has two ferry routes; the principal route is from Ardrossan to Brodick, and the secondary route is between Lochranza and Claonaig on Kintyre.

26. Currently a typical service day on Ardrossan to Brodick would run from early morning to early evening, with the first sailing to the mainland around 8.30 am and the last sailing around 7.30 pm. The Friday service offers an additional sailing later in the evening. There are around 5 to 6 sailings per day Monday to Saturday, less on a Sunday.

27. Our needs based assessment for Arran suggests increasing the service provision on the Ardrossan to Brodick route so that the new operating day runs from very early in the morning (around 7 am) through to much later in the evening (at least 10 pm). We also suggest increasing the frequency of the service so that it closely matches a shuttle service. This proposal would substantially increase the connection between Arran and the Scottish mainland.

28. There are no low cost practicable options for how we might increase the service provision on Ardrossan to Brodick. Currently the route is served by one large vessel. To double-crew this vessel so that we could extend the operating day would be extremely expensive.

29. A better long-term option would be to replace the existing vessel with two smaller vessels. These vessels would be more fuel efficient and each vessel would require a smaller number of crew than the current vessel. So while there is a substantial initial investment, the increase in running costs is significantly less. We may be able to achieve this change during the next CHFS contract (2013-2019) or it may be that this change is only possible as part of the vessel renewal programme to be published as part of the Final Ferries Plan.

30. We recognise that the current harbour infrastructure at Brodick acts as a capacity constraint and that this needs to be addressed prior to the introduction of RET on this route. Major investment is planned at Brodick to replace the ageing harbour infrastructure. That work will be taken forward by CMAL over the current Spending Review period 2012/13 to 2014/15. In addition to addressing the current capacity problems, the improvement work will improve the operational resilience of Brodick for existing and future vessels


34. The community is asked for their views on these proposals

- full consultation - http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/str ... 024-05.htm

[WC1]

I must be missing something here John. The purpose RET is to make ferry pricing the same as the equivalent journey by road where no road exists, i.e., where a ferry is necessary for the journey, thus removing the economic disadvantage to living on an island. In Campbeltown's case a road does exist - there is no actual need for a ferry. If the ferry service to Ayrshire - greatly subsidised - came into being, the cost would be the same to get from Campbeltown to Glasgow as for going 'round the road'. The difference? The cost of the unnecessary subsidy. How can it be a sensible use of the taxpayer's money to subsidise an unnecessary ferry journey? There must be many other, more necessary, things the Scottish government could spend that money on.

I won't answer the point about why Labour didn't introduce RET when it could have. I only know it was being mooted by the party when I was a member nearly 50 years ago.

[Niander]

The purpose RET is to make ferry pricing the same as the equivalent journey by road where no road exists, i.e., where a ferry is necessary for the journey,

I lived in the hebrides i found even RET was much more expensive than a road journey would cost anyway!
also we might as well be an island with our long winding mountainous road journey to Glasgow.!

[John S]

WC I don't understand your objection here.

Do you disagree that a ferry from Campbeltown to Troon would bring markets South Troon about 2 hours closer to Campbeltown? 55 odd million people for whom Campbeltown would become closer than Inveraray.

Do you disagree that this would be an economic advantage to Campbeltown?

I have already explained that RET will be applicable just like Tarbert / Portavadie, all you seem to be doing here is trying to spread doubt by what ever means you can and when that fails moving on to a new tack.

[russanros]

these technical terms (dual aligned roads ) mean nothing to us everyday Carradale road users.

I dont know what it means either, I meant a lane for each direction rather than single track (dual track?? )- driving from Campbeltown to Carradale is a far better proposition than from Claonaig whatever your mode of transport? especially for anyone without a car!

[WC1]

Jut trying to be realistic John. RET is intended for islands. It is provided to remove the economic disadvantage that ferry costs represent. We are not on an island. Relatively remote, certainly, but we have a road all the way to those 55 million people. RET does not apply in our case, unless you have some way of bending the rules.

[jdcarra]

these technical terms (dual aligned roads ) mean nothing to us everyday Carradale road users.

I dont know what it means either, I meant a lane for each direction rather than single track (dual track?? )- driving from Campbeltown to Carradale is a far better proposition than from Claonaig whatever your mode of transport? especially for anyone without a car!

"Russanors" please keep your wisecracks to yourself and stop p*ssing me off.You stick to your bike routes and I'll do my best to support what ferry route we have for our community meantime. Read the report as Tom B mentioned and also look on my website http://www.the-carradale-goat.co.uk ........post 3.4.12 ferry issues.

[Mary G]

Maybe John S can explain how the £18 single fare for a vehicle from Tarbert to Portavadie benefits from being part of what he calls RET?

The distance is 3.4 miles. The fuel for that distance would, in an average car, costs just under £1. The principle of RET is that the ferry journey should cost the same as using your car if the route could be completed by road. Even allowing some costs for wear and tear, this is self-evidently not a genuine road equivalent tariff.

These other examples are instructive:

Arran
£25.50 for a single car journey
4.3 miles from Claonaig to Lochranza

Islay
£55 for a single car journey
29.7 miles from Kennacraig to Port Askaig

Lewis, part of John's lauded RET pilot
£44 for a single car journey
53 miles from Ullapool to Stornoway

The Western Isles communities have some sort of 'cheap-ish fares scheme' - as you see from the fact that the Lewis journey is cheaper than the shorter Islay one. But it only applies to domestic vehicles now. And a real RET would have produced a fare of aroud £10 for a 53 mile journey, not £44.

Commercial traffic to the Western Isles was taken out this cheap-ish/non-RET scheme at the start of the month and lorries etc are now paying a 50% increase . And there will be further 50% increases in the next two years. That is brutal, and does not sound like something to recommend here. If the delivery vans, lorries and tour buses are not inside this scheme for the Western Isles, then no way would they stand a chance on any Ayrshire to Kintyre route. As it stands, this SNP scheme delivers modest savings, on some routes, for some vehicles. But it is not a genuine RET.

Don't hold your breath for any great advantages for Campbeltown, even if anyone could argue the case for this pricing scheme for mainland communities.

isn't it a shame that the Labour Party never managed to impliment RET

To which the obvious response is: Isn't it a shame that the SNP have not implemented RET, but worse still, pretend that they did?

[John S]

As it stands, this SNP scheme delivers modest savings, on some routes, for some vehicles.

Enough political rhetoric Mary, people are not interested in the definitions, calculations or ownership of the scheme, but only on the impact it will have and whether or not they will benefit -no matter how you paint it, If Labour had the idea first all those years ago, why have we not been benefiting from it for decades?

The Assessment of the Impacts of the Road Equivalent Tariff Pilot produced by Halcrow ltd in July 2011 found the following, you might describe these as modest, WC might describe them as not being a sensible use of taxpayers money, other opinions are also available.

The fare reductions ranged from 14.3% for a single car fare on the Oban –Castlebay/Lochboisdale route to 53% for a commercial vehicle fare on the Uig –Tarbert/Lochmaddy route. Passenger fares fell by on average 40%.

car traffic increased proportionately by almost 50%

Some 30,000 additional visits were made by ferry to the Pilot area during each year of the Pilot.

[WC1]

It's a bit dangerous to misrepresent what people say, John, especially when you're looking for their votes. What I said was that, since RET is for islands, and we're not on an island, we shouldn't qualify for RET. We have a road which represents the equivalent of the ferry journey. To subsidise a ferry where a road exists is unnecessary expenditure, especially when RET is quite obviously under-funded for those who actually need it. In my humble opinion, if there's spare cash about, I'd rather see it spent on improving the A83, especially between Campbeltown and mid-Argyll. Greater good of the greater number again!

[Mary G]

The fare reductions ranged from 14.3% for a single car fare on the Oban –Castlebay/Lochboisdale route to 53% for a commercial vehicle fare on the Uig –Tarbert/Lochmaddy route.

That 53% reduction for commercial vehicles is no more. It has been virtually wiped out with the 50% increase on 1 April 2012 for commercial vehicles. To be followed by two further 50+% increases in future years. So whatever Halcrow Fox said in July last year is now woefully out of date, and no longer relevant.

people are not interested in the definitions, calculations

John, you sound like you are not interested in your claims and hyperbole being scrutinised. Your assertions do not stand up when compared with the hard facts. Have you seen how a Western Isles SNP councillor has resigned in protest at the mess that is 'RET'? Saying he cannot possibly defend such a damaging policy, and the negative impacts on this islands.

As to why Labour has not introduced a proper RET scheme? Well, there are a variety of reasons, but my reading is that it boils down to making tough choices on how you spend that transport budget. Given the state of ferries and facilities, their speed and frequency, the choice was made to improve what was on offer over the last years, rather than offer people reduced fares on infrequent and sub-standard services. So new routes, like the Tarbert-Portavadie one were introduced under Labour, as were new ferries, eg on the Rothesay route.

And, to do a real Road Equivalent Traffic scheme properly is neither cheap nor simple. The Islay car fare would drop from £55 to around £12, if you use the 40p per mile rate used by HMRC. Some island communities are against the current scheme right now, because the big increases in vehicles using ferries, often from tourist traffic, has regularly meant that islanders cannot get their cars on the boats.

Finally, lest there be any confusion, the Portavadie route is not part of the current 'RET' scheme. I have not seen any firm time-scale when cheaper fares would be introduced on this or any other Clyde route.

[Glen Sannox]

Evening, all.

Fascinated by this topic. However, has anyone considered what the effect of turning it into a ferry terminal would be upon Blackwaterfoot? Convenient though it would be for me when on holiday there, surely the extra traffic and infrastructure required, even for a small vessel like the Loch Tarbert, would really spoil the place. And imagine the inter-ferry traffic all trundling across the String!

Claonaig is not ideal, being only a ferry terminal plus bus shelter, but that is the result of giving scant regard to any users but those in cars, who do not require the facilities that those travelling on two wheels or two legs would welcome. I speak from experience; thanks to the local authority's failure to sweep up the surplus chuckie-stanes directly after surface dressing the B8001 thus rendering it a scree slope, I was unable to cycle along about a third of it. This meant I missed the boat at Claonaig and had over an hour to wait for the next one. Fortunately it was a pleasant June evening, and I spent the time examining the rocks, watching birds and talking to a passer-by, but it was not at all ideal.

Some sort of small passenger service between Blackwaterfoot and Campbeltown could probably be accommodated without ruining the village, but nothing more.

[muppetanimal]

So to bring everyone up to date we may or may not have a service from Campbeltown to Ballycastle, from Campbeltown to Ardrossan, and now from Campbeltown to Blackwaterfoot.

I hope the harbourmaster qualifies for a bonus as he is going to be a very busy man.

The obvious benefit will be for us motorists. All these traffic lights will need to be taken off of our roads and positioned at various points within the harbour to control the movements of all of these ferries coming and going here, there and everywhere.