Summer ferry link announced for Kintyre peninsula

[John S]

Mary RET is being introduced on clyde services 2015. Which is when RET will apply to the Campbeltown service along with the others, which is only sensible.

[Mary G]

Thanks for explaining the difference between what you claimed last year, and what is actually on offer.

Where is this commitment published John, that there will be RET fares on the Clyde from 2015? Couldn't find it anywhere when I checked a while back. I'm keen to find out more of the detail, in particular for different categories of vehicle, discount rates, and routes.

[WC1]

I have always understood that RET applies to island communities so that the cost of getting there is the same as if it had been possible to do so by road, thus removing the disadvantage inherent in their being island communities. Campbeltown is not on an island, there is a road, so I can't see why RET should be applicable. Perhaps Cllr Semple can enlighten me?

[odds]

In my opinion as a frequent visitor, the problem is the times of the ferries. If they think that this will improve tourism then they really didn't think about it too much really. Who on earth wants to arrive at 21:20 on a Friday night for a weekend away, or even a week, that's a day of the holiday paid for and wasted, drive there and be there for dinner time !!
I travelled last year by ferry from Adrossan to Arran and then to Cloanaig, time wise no difference, cost wise more expensive but it was an experience and I lost no holiday time as I was in Campbeltown for dinner time.
So for me speaking as a tourist, I would never even consider using it, which is a pity really.

Pete.

[maganru]

I know it's dear to take the car on the ferry but I think most of us will use it at least once, even if just for the novelty factor, and on a day like today it would be a beautiful crossing. But I will still drive most of the time and that, too, is a wonderful journey. Ideally I would like to have a car parked somewhere in Campbeltown so that I could just take the ferry as a foot passenger, jump into the car and be in Southend in minutes. If it brings more people to the town then it's a great thing - as long as all the shops are open.

[Mary G]

So John S cannot provide evidence of this assertion that RET fares will apply in 2015.

I wonder if that statement will be another empty promise: Last year he insisted that the Campbeltown fare would be cheaper than the mainland to Arran one. And it’s not. Back then some of us challenged him on how this could be the case, and we were brushed off as if we knew nothing. Turns out our cause for scepticism was well-founded. And his bluster turned out to be bunkum.

Frankly, I have no confidence in his latest ‘promise’, especially since he has not provided any evidence to back up his statement.

[maxmix]

So John S cannot provide evidence of this assertion that RET fares will apply in 2015.

Would'nt be worrying too much about 2015 ! The ferry could be gone again by then if things go badly wrong !

It's NOW reductions should be applied so it does not become a failure... I thought RET fares were for Island ferry services, not sure how it would apply to Campbeltown harbour ! Anyone ?

I'm quite happy with the prices although some of the sailing times could have been approved....

Thoughts ?

maxmix

[John S]

No, RET will apply to Campbeltown Ardrossan, it will be part of the programmed role out of RET on Clyde routes in 2015. This has been confirmed to me by Transport Scotland. It also featured in the Deputy First Ministers speech in Campbeltown on the opening of the New Quay extension. Mary I really take umbrage at your aggressive attacks. I appreciate that we belong to different political parties and that your failure to make any progress in bringing New Labour into any prominence in Argyll must be frustrating, but why sow the seeds of doubt in this service before it even starts?

If you want to attack Mine or the SNP's credibility then lets have a debate on the issues around the Indy referendum next year, after all thats what your coments are all about, is it not?

[Mary G]

Seriously John, you know that my concern is to do what’s best for the local area. And I know that this is your motivation too. You also have evidence of the detailed work and research I did ten years ago on the Irish ferry service. So I resent your flawed assumptions on my motivation. I’d be grateful if you withdrew that allegation – it reflects badly on you as a Councillor if you go around casting aspersions like that.

But on this issue I think your judgement is wrong. Not your motivation – your judgement. I really believe that this will head the way of the Ballycastle service and the Oban airport – an expensive project that will fail to fulfil potential for the area… a white elephant of sorts. You've got to implement things carefully, not just come up with a clever sounding idea. Just because an initiative sounds like a good one doesn't mean that the work is done. Details like routing, timetables, fares, vessels are crucial. Get them wrong, and what looked fine on paper turns out to be poor in practice.

I also think folk are spinning you lines. You were assured last year (by Transport Scotland?) that the fares would be RET from the outset. And we now know you were lied to - because the fares aren't RET. Unless I get a written guarantee I don’t believe causal assurances from officials or other politicians. Hence me asking for the published details for 2015. And I’d advise you to also adopt such a healthy scepticism. From my reading of the state of ferry funding across Scotland I’d be astonished if you got any such assurance. Because it won’t happen. Things are being made up on a daily basis. The removal of RET for commercial vehicles in the Western Isles, Coll and Tiree was done with just weeks’ notice last year. And it might now all unravel on the back of the recent report. So no-one can commit to how RET will work in 2015, especially for a mainland-mainland route. Western Ferries would have a lot to shout about on that account, for a start.

The referendum is the least of my concerns, because I think a ‘No’ outcome is highly probable. Which suits me. But your party in Argyll is inevitably taking loads of decisions now, not on their inherent merits – like this service – but on how they’ll play with the electorate in the referendum. And the fiasco over the Council budget, including the handling of the care home in Dunoon is a prime example. Rather than take the right decision, the right way, SNP representatives are constantly thinking: “How will this play in the referendum?”. Get over it. You were all elected to do the best for the Argyll & Bute, not deliver constitutional change for the UK. No Council decision should ever be taken with one eye on referendum votes. That is a fast road to damnation. Your legal duty as a local councillor is clear.

[John S]

Mary the Labour Led Scottish Executive funded the redevelopment Oban airport long before I was a councillor. Can you spin any deeper?

[Mary G]

What does that mean John? You're obsessed with parties.

I think I'll post some more on the Oban airport on a separate thread. But whoever provided initial capital investment, it is Argyll & Bute Council tax payers that pay annually for the Oban airport service that you as a Councillor approve every year.

But back to this ferry John: Here is what I would have welcomed.

Five year pilot – because shorter cannot garner the tour industry (guides, tour-buses, maps),
Year round – to encourage freight, and recruit crew to proper year-round jobs.
Troon as the other port – shorter sea-route, so cheaper to operate, same distance to Glasgow
Daily service – two sailings, seven days per week - gets people in the habit
Ireland leg – option in year 4 / 5 to make route Ballycastle-Campbeltown-Troon and return (direct Ayrshire to Ireland route exists, so this one should always stop off in Campbeltown)
Faster vessel – for a pilot period, investigate leasing a faster ship to shorten journey times
Crewing – aim for Kintyre based crew, good for town and cheaper operating costs from shore based staff.

This is on the basis that it would maximise the chances of success. I'd love if the Ardrossan one would succeed, but all my experience and judgement tells me it's not going to happen.

[John S]

As you well know Mary, such a service would only be possible on a commercially tendered basis and was tendered on similar terms to those you suggest by the Lib / Lab Executive attracting no interest from the industry. I doubt that in the worst economic climate that proposition would do any better.

It isn't me obsessed mary, anyone wishing to take the time to review your contributions to this Forum will quickly become aware of your intent.

J

[Mary G]

Personally, I don't think the officials went about it the right way last time they tried to tender. Not creative enough, nor persistent. And the Irish side were not handled properly either, from what I could see - just a personal impression - nothing more. I suspect we'd agree on most of that.

But on this new service, John: I do realise that it must be very embarrassing for you if you received an assurance last year that RET would apply from the start of this service, only for people to renege on that promise. And you know that fares are really crucial to the uptake of this service. The chances of it succeeding would be so much greater if the costs were less.

So, without stirring, what written assurances have you received about 2015? It's fundamental. You will want to be able to show how service uptake grew in year 3 with the changes to fares, and if they don't materialise it will be enormously damaging. I am - honestly - trying to make the best of this. My suggestion is to insist on a written commitment from Transport Scotland about year 3 fares. And if they decline to give you that written assurance then you should be wary of publicising it to the local voters.

You've invested a lot of time and energy in this project. It would be very disappointing if people told you one thing now, only to go back on that commitment in two years' time. You must be very wary, otherwise it will be just like the worthless promises you received last year.

[John S]

Mary you are making this up, its clever political spin, put words in my mouth and treat them like fact, at no point do I say that the route would have RET from day one, indeed in the ferries review it was only suggested that an option for the enhanced Arran Service might be a leg to Campbeltown with no firm commitment. RET will be implemented on the Clyde routes in 2015.

[WC1]

RET will be implemented on the Clyde routes in 2015.

Including Western Ferries from Gourock to Dunoon? And I've still not had an answer to my question about how, logically, or indeed legally, RET can apply when there already is a road.