Independence

[baz]

I'm meaning the debt he will walk away from as he has threatened to do.

Your question was clear enough, did you not understand the answer?

Why is it an immoral position?
Do you not consider Westminster's position immoral?

[Govangirl]

Sorry, I'm clearly not as bright as you Baz. I'll just continue to think that if Salmond carries out his threat to walk away from a debt he helped to create, that is immoral and you just continue to think that the immorality lies with Westminster.

All it actually shows is that we can't trust any political system in the end.

[baz]

I'll just continue to think that if Salmond carries out his threat to walk away from a debt he helped to create, that is immoral and you just continue to think that the immorality lies with Westminster.

Well, that is your prerogative.

I do not make moral judgements.

Just how you arrived at the conclusion that Alex Salmond had any significant part in creating the UK National Debt
does require some explanation.
But then, you only seem keen to post your statements and questions,
and less keen to give answers or rationales.

[gizmo]

I dont know that Salmond has increased our share of the current national debt but do you realy think we can walk away without paying our share, surely that has got to be unthinkable. I can imagine how that would appear to the rest of the world. Would like to be a fly on the wall next time we try to borrow money from anyone except Wonga.

[baz]

I dont know that Salmond has increased our share of the current national debt but do you realy think we can walk away without paying our share, surely that has got to be unthinkable.

If you consider separation from the UK as requiring settlement of the outstanding debt,
without settlement of the oustanding assets, then that is unthinkable.

Parity is key in all negotiations in the division of assets and liabilities.
The difficulty is, that Scotland would gain more from the assets, than it would lose from the liabilities.
Which is why Westminster will not discuss separation until after a Yes vote.

The rest of the world would see Scotland denied its assets, before it defaulted on its debts.

[Govangirl]

Of course I'm asking questions - I still don't have any answers!!!!!!!
Europe has tried very hard to impose a political union on its countries but it has been a disaster due to economic and financial disintegration. Salmond wants to scrap any political and fiscal union yet keep the pound. Whit???? Sorry but I just don’t get that. And then he threatens not to take on Scotland's share of Britain's debts if it is not allowed to join a currency union? You’re saying 'No share of assets (by which I think you mean the pound?), no share of liabilities' – well that sounds like a stoatin' deal but no-one will deal financially with Scotland ever again apart from as Gizmo says, Wonga or any other institution that will offer crippling rates. Salmond and his wee fishwumman sidekick cannot try to impose a currency union and then cry they are being bullied when they don’t find it as easy as it was in their dreams!

[four eyes]

GG best not to engage in a war of wits with an unarmed man! Alexi is relying on Braveheart watching types to push him through.As you state his policy's are threadbare as are the nations coffers. Bickering over who owes or owns what is a fools game. The reason i work abroad and dont live in Scotland is The same as countless others,no money nor prospect of it at home. Prepare for carpetbaggers by the score if Scotland cuts loose.The political elite will do ok as they always do the rest of you will be paying for it.
Meanwhile the weather here in Nevada is in the low 60s with 52% humidity and a light wind.Have a nice day!

[Govangirl]

OMG Four Eyes, I never even suspected you were living another life away from the wee toon. Are you living under Murdoch's rules there too? Hey, maybe wee Eck could peg to the dollar?

[baz]

GG best not to engage in a war of wits

That much is true.
But it does seem that that those with a pro-Unionist viewpoint,
consistently seek to derail thoughtful discussion around Independence,
turning a selectively deaf ear to pertinent issues for lack of a reasoned response,
and whose only recourse is argumentum ad hominem commentary.

Are there any pro-Unionists on this forum, that will actually have a vote on the matter?

[Govangirl]

GG best not to engage in a war of wits

That much is true.

Why, because no one can win against your superior wisdom????

But it does seem that that those with a pro-Unionist viewpoint,
consistently seek to derail thoughtful discussion around Independence,
turning a selectively deaf ear to pertinent issues for lack of a reasoned response,
and whose only recourse is argumentum ad hominem commentary.

Actually, I am not anything - as you rightly state, I have no vote so I am not affected personally by the result of the vote other than I will soon be returning to my homeland and I have parents, siblings, family members and friends whose livelihoods will be seriously affected by a Yes vote. The currency question is just one serious concern and despite all your hot air you have still not given a satisfactory explanation of what currency Scotland hopes to use. As for your other daft comments, you have clearly been schooled at the Alex Salmond School of Debating where every question and concern is batted away with accusations of bullying or derailing. And if anyone is dealing in argumentum ad hominem it is you Baz. Just answer the questions: in an independent Scotland, what currency will be used? If Scotland cannot have a currency union with the UK, what will happen? Are you happy to go with the euro if you are allowed to have it? And lastly, if Scotland, in retaliation for not having the aforesaid currency union, refuse to pay their rightful share of their debts and renege on their obligations, who is going to have any financial dealings with them?

[Pete Reek]

Should the currency and EU stuff have been left unanswered until a few short months before the referendum? The answer is of course no. That should have been sorted out before the Referendum date was even announced in my opinion! Vote YES in September and we will sort it all out for you. Aye right! They sorted Campbeltown out with the Methadone Clinic, so can they be trusted?

Met a lady yesterday who asked me what would be my position on the day.
I told her that I had a lot of unanswered questions about the entire Independence issue. As someone who is all for a Yes vote, she told me that everyone was entitled to have answers to the main issues, but they either cant or won't give these answers.
I listen to and read some of the gibberish being spouted by armchair politicians, but the thing is, they don't know any more about it than I do. They have their opinions like lots of people, but they don't actually know if what they are trying to convince others is true or not. It's what they believe, and God help anyone that doesn't agree with them.
They have this dream about Scotland being one of the richest countries in the world. If all the boxes were ticked and the questions answered, maybe we could all dream along with them.
Independence isn't about Alex Salmond is the cry! It isn't of course. Independence has nothing to do with The Big Yin he
doesn't live in Scotland!! Neither does the Edinburgh milkman, but he keeps getting touted by the YES brigade.
The only thing that's certain is one side of this debate is going to be happy with the outcome in September, God help the other side whichever one it is.

[WC1]

From a recent article in the New Statesman:-

"Scotland need not negotiate sharing the UK debt and could simply let Westminster shoulder the entire estimated UK debt of £1.6trn in 2016/17. That is certainly the logic of the rUK being a continuator state. Nothing in international law requires Scotland to pay one sterling pound of UK debt if the rUK is deemed the continuator state. Nonetheless, the Scottish government has already offered to accept the liability of an estimated £100-£130bn as an independent Scotland’s share of the overall UK debt, but only as the end point of post-referendum negotiations."

You can read the whole article here:-

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/02/flaw-osbornes-pre-emptive-strike-against-currency-union

[baz]

@WC1: good article
Sadly, such well crafted articles are absent from the Scottish media.
I particularly enjoyed this paragraph.

Dire warnings that Scotland’s credibility in the markets would somehow nosedive if this transfer of debt were to happen overlook two simple facts.
First, the UK Treasury already has agreed to cover all UK gilts in the event of independence, a point Osborne made in his speech. So there is no default on the horizon to panic investors.
Second, Scotland would start afresh as a debt-free nation with the apparent agreement, indeed blessing, of the rUK. Perhaps Westminster really has decided to absorb completely the UK debt and thus not negotiate, but rUK taxpayers may wonder about the wisdom of such folly, particularly by a Conservative government. Creditors and investors might view the Scottish position – one of willing to pay, in good faith, its fair share of the UK debt but reluctantly avoiding that financial burden if London insists on being a continuator state and rejecting negotiations – as a sign of financial strength and political acume, rather than weakness or naivety in Edinburgh.

Two reports this week:
Professor David Simpson
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/S4_Ec ... impson.pdf
Professor Charlie Jeffery
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/S4_Ec ... effery.pdf

All the evidence makes clear that a currency union will be in the best interests not only of an independent Scotland but also of the rest of the UK - and as Professor Jeffery said, almost all independent analysis shows that Scotland would enjoy uninterrupted membership of the EU.

Should the currency and EU stuff have been left unanswered until a few short months before the referendum?
The answer is of course no.

How very true.
But with Westminster refusing to discuss or negotiate these issues prior to the referendum,
then it is clear that they do not serve the interests of the Scottish people.

[Shona]

It is of deep concern that, this close to the referendum, the currency issue is still not resolved. And please, I don't want to hear the mantra: It's because of Westminster. I want to know what impact this will have on mortgages. If Scotland has the euro as a currency, what happens to my sterling mortgage? If Scotland adopts sterling but is not in a currency and banking union, what happens to my sterling mortgage? And what happens if, as some on this site have suggested, Scotland has its own tradable currency? Also, how are Scotland's public sector workers going to be paid if there is independence? There would be no tax revenue coming in to cover those costs, so there would have to be considerable borrowing at the outset.

Just a few things churning around in my mind.

[baz]

I want to know what impact this will have on mortgages. If Scotland has the euro as a currency, what happens to my sterling mortgage? If Scotland adopts sterling but is not in a currency and banking union, what happens to my sterling mortgage? And what happens if, as some on this site have suggested, Scotland has its own tradable currency?

Should an Independent Scotland use a currency other than Sterling,
you would convert that currency into Sterling and pay your mortgage.
Alternatively, your lender may choose to operate their business within that currency.
You may also choose to transfer to a different lender.
It is perfectly normal to maintain a mortgage with a non-domicile lender.
Morgage lenders are in the business of making money from you, this will not change.
All the major banks already operate internationally.

Also, how are Scotland's public sector workers going to be paid if there is independence?
There would be no tax revenue coming in to cover those costs, so there would have to be
considerable borrowing at the outset.

Of course there would tax revenue, it is the very essence of Government
http://82.113.138.107/00439021.pdf Chapter Two