Public Meeting

[Bruce]

I see what you're saying Bobbie, but what does the politician from one party returned for an area have to do with someone from another area where a politician from another party was returned? All it means is that the majority of people from those areas voted differently... being stuck in the middle of mob mentality is something else entirely!

[Bobbie En Tejas]

I see what you're saying Bobbie, but what does the politician from one party returned for an area have to do with someone from another area where a politician from another party was returned? All it means is that the majority of people from those areas voted differently... being stuck in the middle of mob mentality is something else entirely!

That wasn't a comment about your point, just one of those thoughts randomly floating around my brain that was spewed..

[ionnsaigh]

Maybe the gun wouldn't be for use on himself as apparently ionnsaigh is irish gaelic for "attack"...

... anyway, isn't it a bit strange that someone that for a number of reasons don't have a Democratic vote has a lot to say on the political situation of a constituency he wouldn't have the right to vote in even if he did have the right to actually vote so even if the Campbeltown/Kintyre area returned a political candidate from a party he wouldn't support anyway, what business is it of his? Its a democratic process and majority rules... as it does in the constituency where I live - I accept the person that is voted in irrespective of whether I voted for him or not and would be p'd off if an outsider commented on it!

Well firstly you would have to ask yourself- is this really a Democracy, when for political reason some like myself are denied the only means that this Democracy provides to change things. Does that seem fair to you? surely in a Democracy all should be entitled to vote.
I don't have the right to vote anywhere in Scotland, the place I was born- to Scottish parents, the place I live, work, rest and play and probably die in.

If we apply the logic that you appear to use- then you yourself shouldn't have a vote in Kintyre, in fact you don't- however you (I suspect) have a vote where you abide. Nevertheless you fell completely free to comment on matters relating to Kintyre- and why shouldn't you- then why shouldn't I ?.At the end of the day you have more than I, at least in terms of the choice of election, you then ask what business is it of mine to comment on political matters in Kintyre- Why would you deny me that right also? It gets less Democratic as time goes on- think again my friend.

As far as the working functions of Democracy are concerned it may be well worth noting that the Fascist regime of Hitler was Democratically elected. At the cost of Thousands of Scottish lives.

You use the masculine term him, to describe the parliamentary candidate , for me and my way of thinking Democracy should be about true representation- in other words the Ruling Class represent the ruling Class, yet how many Working Class Labour MSP are they? how many belong to the Middle Class, this educated Class far out number that of People from my particular background , representative Democracy I think not.

Mick Donoghue.

[John S]

Well firstly you would have to ask yourself- is this really a Democracy, when for political reason some like myself are denied the only means that this Democracy provides to change things. Does that seem fair to you? surely in a Democracy all should be entitled to vote.

Mick, it very much depends on why you are denied the right to vote, People not entitled to vote in a general election include people under 18 years of age, members of the House of Lords, foreign nationals resident in the UK (other than Commonwealth citizens or citizens of the Irish Republic), some patients detained under mental health legislation, sentenced prisoners and people convicted within the previous five years of corrupt or illegal election practices.

I can see strong arguments for lowering the age of voting to 16, but remain to be convinced about any of the others.

[Ticketty Boo!]

I've been watching this thread develop with interest. Sure, there is a fair amount of pash and shecht, but sift through it and there are a lot of sensible posts. I'm 39, and have had the privilege of voting in around 4 general elections. I started off voting labour. My own community area (Johnstone) was devastated when the chrysler car plant closed about 1981 or 82. Shortly after that, local children were hit by Yuill & Dodds lorries strikebusting lorries transporting coal from hunterston to ravenscraig during the miners strike. This understandably left a huge anti-tory taste in local mouths - so everyone voted labour.

Getting a little older, and thinking for myself, my next vote was for SNP as I really believed that Scotland had more to gain from Independance and devolution than it had to lose. In the early 90's, no other party took that issue seriously in my opinion.

In the late 90's my allegance changed once again, this time to the Lib Dems. I believed in Paddy Ashdown as a leader and that he was a man interested in plain speaking who I could identify with. I remained with the Lib Dems at the last election too, although Paddy Pantsdown was now gone. The tories were unellectable (by their own admission), I didn't like what Blair was getting into in Iraq and was determined not to vote for or support George Bush's plaything.

Now being a city boy who loves, and holidays regularly in, the Kintyre area (ok - Trumpton!), my voting concerns were all at a national level. I've been visiting Trumpton and the Toon for 35 years and as i've got older I've began to appreciate (I said appreciate, not understand!) the way of life and the ways of quite a few Kintyre people. I do understand that politics in Kintyre are more about the individual MP and not so much about his or her party. I therefore believe that by electing an MP for their individual attributes (regardless of which - if any - party they belong to) you've got more chance of getting it right in the first place? Although there are many pressing issues that are of vast importance to the local area, life in Kintyre is generally accepted as being a little slower and more peaceful than most other places of the UK - and rightly so. Hang on to this for grim death as long as you can. I know that times are hard for the whole area, especially in the winter months, but please never forget that on your doorstep you have what 90% of the rest of us dream about. As more southern property money moves into Kintyre, things will inevitably change - some for better - some for worse.

I'm sitting in an office in London writing this. The road is on the main route from Belmarsh High Security Prison to the Old Bailey. Each morning and evening an armed Police convoy makes the journey with Lorries, Range Rovers, Outriders, and a Helicopter overhead at low altitude. Several days each month protest marches pass the window heading for Trafalgar Square. Native English language speakers are in the minority in this area due partly to the large number of overseas students living nearby. The Thames is a 5 min walk away. It's disgustingly filthy. We're on the flightpath into Heathrow. Wide-bodied aircraft land every 90 secs from 4.45am. Polution from cars, buses, lorries is vile.

So why am I here? Two reasons. 1-Money. 2-I'm too much of a coward to turn my back on reason 1!
Would I like to live in Trumpton? - of course, but my family prefer their home near Glasgow.
How would I earn a living if I moved to kintyre? - god knows!

My whole point - enjoy your independance and individuality. I for one am deeply jealous of it.

[Bruce]

is this really a Democracy, when for political reason some like myself are denied the only means that this Democracy provides to change things. Does that seem fair to you? surely in a Democracy all should be entitled to vote.
I don't have the right to vote anywhere in Scotland...

As John S has pointed out, there are a number of reasons why someone is denied a vote and I wouldn't even like to consider which one might apply to you. As for my right to vote, yes I have had that for some time, but I have not always used it (tho in each case my 1 vote wouldn't have changed the result!) and like I said I accept whoever is elected whether I agree with their choice or not!

As for discussing the situation in Kintyre/Campbeltown, I have at no point questioned the politics of either the individuals or their elected representative(s) - that is none of my business. However, it is an area that I am interested in as (as I have said before on the forum) my partner's family is from the area. However, I am also interested in Fife (and in particular the Dunfermline area) as that is where I am from. However, as much as I discuss the situation there (a place I haven't lived in for over 20 years) I do not question the actual politics of the area.

The bottom line as far as I see it is this - if you want to get on a soapbox and shout your thoughts and feelings and beliefs to the world you do it where you live. However, that does not mean I expect you will stop commenting on something just because I don't believe you should - but I will also continue to question why you choose to do so even if from this point on I won't make it so public!

Finally, I used the masculine to describe the parliamentary candidate as, at the last election held here, it was onvious I male was going to win... it wasn't a sexist comment as (unusually for here) there were no female candidates!

[John S]

Ticketty Boo, I appreciate your sentiments. But I think you are missing something, which is about the balance I mentioned earlier; things in Kintyre are constantly changing, but not for the better, I’ll explain.

Apart from 7 years in the 1980’s when I worked in Johnstone. I have spent all my life in Kintyre. The village I was brought up in had over 30 children; today there are 7 or 8, most of the housing once occupied by families now occupied by the widowed mothers. Of the 30 children I played with only 10 or so still live in Kintyre.

Kintyre is experiencing an spiral of decline; jobs go, people go, services go, jobs go until all that remains is a population which grows older and is replaced by retiring incomers who are able to boost their pension on the difference between housing prices in Kintyre and the South of England. At the same time driving up house prices here, driving first time buyers out of the market.

Those of us who live here must look at how we reverse this. The elected politicians who you say have “more chance of getting it right in the first place” have completely failed to address the issue, and in true Kintyre fashion consider it to be inevitable.

Anyone from Kintyre, who has spent time in Glasgow, London, etc, cannot fail to recognise the advantages of the quality of life here. There must be thousands of people who, like yourself would give their eye teeth to be able to maintain their standard of living and return to “Scotland’s best kept secret”.

The balance we need to establish is how to attract back to the area and hold a population of young families without destroying the advantages we have. Otherwise continuing decline is inevitable until all that will remain is old people and holiday homes.

Inward investment projects like Vestas are not the answer, although welcome for the respite they bring. The answer is a more competitive Scotland, which can attract blue chip business by providing low operating costs, not up front financial incentives. This coupled with greater community input and ownership of the development and planning processes will insure that development appropriate to locality takes place. As I have already said, I think this can only come with full Independence.

Should we ever gain this kind of Independence perhaps we should start mapping the skills and experience of people like yourself who could contribute to the success of this community should a suitable job materialise. This would not only be a benefit for businesses looking to invest in the area but would ensure that those who leave and wish to return have a chance of doing so.

What line of business are you in?

[ionnsaigh]

Well firstly you would have to ask yourself- is this really a Democracy, when for political reason some like myself are denied the only means that this Democracy provides to change things. Does that seem fair to you? surely in a Democracy all should be entitled to vote.

Mick, it very much depends on why you are denied the right to vote, People not entitled to vote in a general election include people under 18 years of age, members of the House of Lords, foreign nationals resident in the UK (other than Commonwealth citizens or citizens of the Irish Republic), some patients detained under mental health legislation, sentenced prisoners and people convicted within the previous five years of corrupt or illegal election practices.

I can see strong arguments for lowering the age of voting to 16, but remain to be convinced about any of the others.

O.K. Here we go.
I'm over 18 years, not a member of the House of Lords, Born and lived in Glasgow all my life 54 years, never been detained under the Mental Health Act- never been a sentenced prisoner- or convicted of corrupt or illegal election practices.
I imagine there must be more categories- the later directly effects the amount eligible to vote in a negative fashion, in other words the more categories the state imposes- the less voters there actually are. At this point the last American Election Scandal springs to mind- An utter disgrace to those who love the positive aspects of true Democratic procedure.

In a Independent Scotland- by this I mean truly Independent, in terms of the Economic system that condemn a third of its People to Poverty- couldn't and wouldn't be acceptable in a country that loves its people- and the Peoples of the World.
I hope for a civilised Society, one that distributes wealth equally. Scotland could become a beacon to all, a place where fairness and Justice prevails- A place where Homes, Heath, Education, where seen as prerequisite to Civilisation.
. A place where no one was denied the sovereign right to vote. Voting would be encouraged by clear example shown by those in temporary control. Voting by means of the Internet- to all of its Citizens aged 14years and over. People should be encouraged to vote at least weekly on any number of Local or National Issues. All Public Transport should be free at point of delivery including all air travel- All Power supplies would be free at point of access-A massive Public Housing building programme would be an embryonic ingredient in the formation of the new Scottish Society.
From the moment of conception all private land ownership would be abolished-All Banks Financial Houses taken over by State control, All mineral Wealth would be taken into Public control- In order to wipe out poverty all debts incurred by people in receipt of state benefit would be nil and void. All Council house rents would be halved within the first year- The working week would be significantly reduced to 20 hours per week. Pensions would double and be inflation fixed. All wages would be set at £300 per 20 hour week, regardless of occupation. Scotland would have no standing armed forces -All Citizen would be supplied with a Kalashnikov with informative training on the dangers of guns, and the ultimate responsibility of gun management and control within their Community. A new type of Police force would be required, one that comes from the Community they actually serve- one that is Democratically elected from within that Community for a yearly term based on the merit of individual Police Persons. The Police would be entirely accountable to each of the Communities that they strive to serve. Science and research would be high on the Public agenda and purse- as would by the seizing of supermarkets who refuse the new price fixing set by the people. Plans for a New Capital small City would be made and implemented and completed within Ten years. An emphasis on Quality would be actively encouraged.

Parliament would have 500 delegates selected at random to serve not more than Two Five year terms- All delegates would be submitted to a weekly poll by their own respective Communities Two strikes( given the circumstances ) and your out
to be replaced immediately by another willing member of the Community.

President would have no power other than to obey the instructions of the 500. The President would be subjected to a Monthly National vote- Two strikes and out. The Education age should be increased significantly to 20years, Nursery places made available to all who require. National apprentice schemes would be introduced. Medical and teaching professions would be highly regarded, as would Scientific research. Sorry for going on I love this world and its diversity of People and I love this land we call Scotland.
Mick Donoghue

[Sweltered]

Well firstly you would have to ask yourself- is this really a Democracy, when for political reason some like myself are denied the only means that this Democracy provides to change things. Does that seem fair to you? surely in a Democracy all should be entitled to vote.

Mick, it very much depends on why you are denied the right to vote, People not entitled to vote in a general election include people under 18 years of age, members of the House of Lords, foreign nationals resident in the UK (other than Commonwealth citizens or citizens of the Irish Republic), some patients detained under mental health legislation, sentenced prisoners and people convicted within the previous five years of corrupt or illegal election practices.

I can see strong arguments for lowering the age of voting to 16, but remain to be convinced about any of the others.

O.K. Here we go.
I'm over 18 years, not a member of the House of Lords, Born and lived in Glasgow all my life 54 years, never been detained under the Mental Health Act- never been a sentenced prisoner- or convicted of corrupt or illegal election practices.
I imagine there must be more categories- the later directly effects the amount eligible to vote in a negative fashion, in other words the more categories the state imposes- the less voters there actually are. At this point the last American Election Scandal springs to mind- An utter disgrace to those who love the positive aspects of true Democratic procedure.

In a Independent Scotland- by this I mean truly Independent, in terms of the Economic system that condemn a third of its People to Poverty- couldn't and wouldn't be acceptable in a country that loves its people- and the Peoples of the World.
I hope for a civilised Society, one that distributes wealth equally. Scotland could become a beacon to all, a place where fairness and Justice prevails- A place where Homes, Heath, Education, where seen as prerequisite to Civilisation.
. A place where no one was denied the sovereign right to vote. Voting would be encouraged by clear example shown by those in temporary control. Voting by means of the Internet- to all of its Citizens aged 14years and over. People should be encouraged to vote at least weekly on any number of Local or National Issues. All Public Transport should be free at point of delivery including all air travel- All Power supplies would be free at point of access-A massive Public Housing building programme would be an embryonic ingredient in the formation of the new Scottish Society.
From the moment of conception all private land ownership would be abolished-All Banks Financial Houses taken over by State control, All mineral Wealth would be taken into Public control- In order to wipe out poverty all debts incurred by people in receipt of state benefit would be nil and void. All Council house rents would be halved within the first year- The working week would be significantly reduced to 20 hours per week. Pensions would double and be inflation fixed. All wages would be set at £300 per 20 hour week, regardless of occupation. Scotland would have no standing armed forces -All Citizen would be supplied with a Kalashnikov with informative training on the dangers of guns, and the ultimate responsibility of gun management and control within their Community. A new type of Police force would be required, one that comes from the Community they actually serve- one that is Democratically elected from within that Community for a yearly term based on the merit of individual Police Persons. The Police would be entirely accountable to each of the Communities that they strive to serve. Science and research would be high on the Public agenda and purse- as would by the seizing of supermarkets who refuse the new price fixing set by the people. Plans for a New Capital small City would be made and implemented and completed within Ten years. An emphasis on Quality would be actively encouraged.

Parliament would have 500 delegates selected at random to serve not more than Two Five year terms- All delegates would be submitted to a weekly poll by their own respective Communities Two strikes( given the circumstances ) and your out
to be replaced immediately by another willing member of the Community.

President would have no power other than to obey the instructions of the 500. The President would be subjected to a Monthly National vote- Two strikes and out. The Education age should be increased significantly to 20years, Nursery places made available to all who require. National apprentice schemes would be introduced. Medical and teaching professions would be highly regarded, as would Scientific research. Sorry for going on I love this world and its diversity of People and I love this land we call Scotland.
Mick Donoghue

No mention of how members of the Politburo, oops Cabinet would be elected.

This is the single biggest pile of pi$h I've read on here, and I should know, I 've written a fair chunk of it myself. Government run by randomly selected individuals may have some merit, but you would need a revolving door. You cannot run a country the same way you run a community council. Why have a president? Just hire a press secretary. NOTHING would get done with so many delgates to voice opinions. What are the apprentices going to do? Become unemployed welders? Why would the rest of the world come flocking to scotland unless it was for cheap labour, is that the idea? Scotland would still have to pay for imports, getting a special rate?

This is a joke isn't it come on tell us. Is a membership to swingers clubs going to be included for all?

If you love Scotland so much, why do you want to turn it into some 3rd rate communist state?

[Bruce]

Based on that last post by ionnsaigh, I think the fact he doesn't have a say in anything isn't a bad thing - most of it read like the rants of a raving lunatic then he comes out with:

All Citizen would be supplied with a Kalashnikov

ionnsaigh, are you sure you haven't been sectioned somewhere along the line?

[John S]

I stopped at Kalashnikov, are you sure you've never been detained under the mental health act?

[Captain Codpiece]

This is the single biggest pile of pi$h I've read on here, and I should know, I 've written a fair chunk of it myself.

I have to agree. Did he include the bit about 'Free jam tomorrow' ?

Halving rents *and* halving the working week. So who's going to pay for it all?

Priceless.

How about adding 'Every man being entitled to five free pints of Tenants every day' ?

[Bruce]

Not forgetting a constant supply of ammo for the Kalashnikov seeing as they would get regular use... tho I am not sure where the need for a police force or even money would come in if everyone was allowed to be armed with one of these - but at least grounding the kids would be easier (or would the blazing rows turn into gun fights on the stairs?)

[LO]

[/quote] How about adding 'Every man being entitled to five free pints of Tenants every day' ?[/quote]

Far to wooly Captain, it is more likely to be something along the lines of

"Every man, woman and child, regardless of age, gender, religion and sexual preference will be compelled to consume five pints of Tennants every day, and the brewery must ensure that this is provided free at the point of consumption"

Wow! As some of you know, I'm getting on a bit now and so decided to retire from posting a while back. However this guy is such a class act that he has single-handedly drawn me back to the Board like a magnet. That is real charisma for you and I think that at last we are finally seeing the first stirrings of the type of leadership that Scotland badly needs to drag us kicking and screaming in to the early dawn of the twentieth century. O ho-ro, the Gillie Mor!

[Bobbie En Tejas]

Wow! As some of you know, I'm getting on a bit now and so decided to retire from posting a while back.

If we should stop posting because we are "getting on a bit," some of us would have had to quit posting in 1974.... had they had posts.