Public Meeting

[ionnsaigh]

I am a Celt.

I thought you were a Scot? Or have you abandoned all Scots other than those of Celtic lineage? or has the wind just changed again.[/quote

There is no contradiction- I am a Human Being, of Celtic origin, who happens to be Scottish. I can be all Three. As Ive mentioned in other posts I can only speak for myself in those terms. The point that I was trying to make in response is that external conditions play a significant role in determining what we become, so much so, in fact that they will either through time- or catalytic event, change the very nature of what things are at a given moment in time. As far as heritage is concerned- it appears unscientific, a crude blunt blade - belonging within the realms of Romanticism- when the Evolutionary condition of all living things is left abandoned by nostalgic fuelled feeling. What we as Humans have - and lay justifiable claim
to, is heritage to the Ape. Some may be uncomfortable with the true nature of things- however nevertheless- the fact remains. The sooner we all get it together- then the better for all- regardless of Race, Religion and the reactionary powers that be. A World without war , free of poverty- disease- want.

[Bobbie En Tejas]

Some may be uncomfortable with the true nature of things- however nevertheless- the fact remains. The sooner we all get it together- then the better for all- regardless of Race, Religion and the reactionary powers that be. A World without war , free of poverty- disease- want.

The true nature of things is, there will never be a utopia on earth. The true nature of man will never allow it. And man isn't always in charge of things such as disease, poverty and want, as there are things that man has no control over.

[ionnsaigh]

Some may be uncomfortable with the true nature of things- however nevertheless- the fact remains. The sooner we all get it together- then the better for all- regardless of Race, Religion and the reactionary powers that be. A World without war , free of poverty- disease- want.

The true nature of things is, there will never be a utopia on earth. The true nature of man will never allow it. And man isn't always in charge of things such as disease, poverty and want, as there are things that man has no control over.

Well firstly you use a sweeping generalisation, as regards to the true nature of Mankind. One that could be regarded as being poor. One that takes little into account of altruism -compassion- love, for your fellow beings. In comparative terms very few People own great wealth, on the other hand a great multitude are poor and destitute, of their equal share in the harvest. This runs contrary - in my humble opinion- to the true nature of People. One must take into account that the thing in itself (Nature) is in the process of development and change. Mankind has evolved through Three great epochs in our growth. From Savagery to Barbarity to the current age of Civilisation. Each of these has within it Three main steps that can be identified as characterizing change from one to another. This change results from a revolutionary economic step in the means of production, no more no less. You continue by stating that Man has no control over disease, in the course of our development we have found cures for disease and we will by nature continue to do so. As for Poverty , we could wipe this monster off the face of the Earth in one simple and inevitable step. I suspect you might be referring to Famine, something that some of our Scientists would devote time and effort too. Whereby one might have a famine in one particular Country massive Worldwide aid would ensure that the dire effects would not be felt. That isn't Utopia- rather a concrete achievable goal for the future of Mankind.

[Bobbie En Tejas]

Our true nature is very complex. While one speaks of a world of altruism, love and compassion, they might exhibit contempt for those who don't agree with them. We aren't perfect, it will never be a perfect world. Even if everyone's intentions were good, there are matters of misunderstandings and mistakes and bad decisions and people honestly believing they are right and willing to fight for it (such as yourself )

As for your other point, for every scientist who is altruistic and wishes to work on means to save the world, there is another wishing to find means to control it. You might want to remember that in the "course of our development," we have found priceless scientific and medical information, including studies of diseases, genetics, bone grafting, hypothermia, etc, in Nazi concentration camps.

[ionnsaigh]

Our true nature is very complex. While one speaks of a world of altruism, love and compassion, they might exhibit contempt for those who don't agree with them. We aren't perfect, it will never be a perfect world. Even if everyone's intentions were good, there are matters of misunderstandings and mistakes and bad decisions and people honestly believing they are right and willing to fight for it (such as yourself )

As for your other point, for every scientist who is altruistic and wishes to work on means to save the world, there is another wishing to find means to control it. You might want to remember that in the "course of our development," we have found priceless scientific and medical information, including studies of diseases, genetics, bone grafting, hypothermia, etc, in Nazi concentration camps.

If I could deal with your last point first- Aye we have found cures in concentration camps. Although this is an argument against how we obtained the cure -rather than the cure itself. As the cure lay waiting to be discovered -be it in a convent or concentration camp, the point is irrelevant. There are matters of misunderstandings and mistakes, however we can only learn from these-adapt and hope not to make the same mistake Twice. Our very nature is one of learning to overcome obstacles that litter our path in the process of development. When a Child gets on a bike for the first time, it cant ride that bike, it has to learn to negate the conditions that impede its progress to ride the bike. To lend weight to my point- We have vandalism in our School buildings- that is however not -a reason to have School buildings- rather a reason to tackle vandalism. You appear to think that " for every scientist with good content there is another without" So according to your equation the population of the World is split Fifty Fifty in terms of Good-Bad Right-Wrong- This if you take your equation to its logical conclusion,it would then include Children- half deemed to failure or wrongdoing. That appears a very strong right wing harsh view of the People of this World- One that cuts right through the middle, a hot knife through butter. An opinion that has been developed by your own cruel circumstances - otherwise how could anyone of fair mind reach such a doom dire conclusion.

[EMDEE]

Just to address the vision that ionnsagh is promoting:

I don't think it is defeatist to state that at this point in our evolution nobody is going to change the way wealth and income is distributed throughout society or indeed the world. Whilst it may be a very commendable activity to try to strive for a better society, and any improvements gained through this are welcome, Utopia is never going to come about.

World history has resulted in the phenomenon of the "West" running the whole world, exploiting the "Third World", and were it not for this, we would not have the standard of living that we have in this country. If the world’s wealth and resources were to be shared out overnight and distributed in an equitable way, we would be "up the creek". At the moment, however, the West is under threat from the Far East who will, in a few decades become the major players on the world stage, and it remains to be seen what will happen then. At least this will prevent the American President from being President of the World, but it is probably a case of "better the devil you know", and at least he is on our side most of the time. (Or maybe more correctly, we are on his side).

What is at the root of the unfair distribution of wealth and income throughout society and the world comes down to the individual, and is probably genetic, like everything else to do with the human race. The human race is known as "homo sapiens", but in our interactions with each other, it is the concept of "homo economicus" that is the overriding factor. This is the main obstacle to the advancement of the human race to a more altruistic outlook on the world and our dealings with each other. It is the fact that we are the only species on the planet who are intelligent enough to exploit each other and plan to do so. This trait will never be eradicated. Even in Communist Russia which was supposed to be an egalitarian society, "some were more equal than others" (Orwell).

In summary then, although it may appear paradoxical, it is our innate intelligence that has created the economic, social and environmental mess in which the world now finds itself, but if it were not for that intelligence, we would not be sitting here discussing this.

This submission is not intended to be political, rather an objective look at how the human race has reached the stage it is at. I have no affiliation to any political party.

This thread is titled "Public Meeting". It appears to have wandered a bit.


"ILLEGITIMIS NON CARBORUNDUM"

[ionnsaigh]

EMDEE

I have never saw my vision as being some sort of romantic dream- rather a concrete achievable goal, one that can be obtained through peaceful Democratic People power means you appear to share the same opinion as Bobbie- although yours is along geographical lines. You use Two sweeping generalisations (West- Third World) to describe the inequality of wealth between Nations at least in terms of who has, and who hasn't. This is a Metaphysical analysis of the situation and deeply flawed it fails to take into account the internal contradictions of both. Admittedly it would appear on the surface, that we in the West receive improper benefit from the exploitation of the Third World- however the term (we) is a sweeping generalisation in itself. Just who Benefits from this ill gotten gain - you seem to suggest all of us "We would not have the standard of living that we have in this country" What standard is that ? because from where I'm sitting Two miles up the road, lie Two adjoining areas in One area People die 18 years prematurely than its affluent neighbour. To myself this represents a gulf between different standards. Economic standards cost money , a commodity that is relatively- in short supply to the poor. If you follow your conclusion to its limit, you infer that the poor in this country Scotland , are better off than the rich of Africa. You see the West as being under threat from the Far East, this is only the expanding nature of Capitalism- where a worker versus worker climate is encouraged- this type of human competition is not in the interest of the Workers regardless of were they happen to be from.
However I believe that Capitalism has sown the seeds of its own destruction, as its lifeblood depends entirely on the cooperation of the exploited. Keep blowing up a balloon and it will eventually burst. As far as President Bush is concerned Ive never been on his side. The man represents all that is ugly, vulgar and vain. His hands are soaked in the blood of countless Thousands- no I could never have someone of that character on my side. You say we are the only species on this planet that has the intelligence to exploit and plan exploitation- haud oan a wee minute- speak for yourself. The Economic- Social- Environmental mess isn't down to the nature of Man it lies squarely at the feet of the Economic system of Capitalism.
I have no affiliation to any political party- never had- and with any degree of luck never will.

[Bobbie En Tejas]

The Economic- Social- Environmental mess isn't down to the nature of Man it lies squarely at the feet of the Economic system of Capitalism.

Poppycock. The source of economic and social problems is the heart of man, and that isn't going to change. Regardless of the system, there will always be corruption and greed and people who get more than they give, and someone else who is naive and manipulated or controlled and gives more than he gets. No perfect world, ionns.

[EMDEE]

Ionnsaigh

I agree with some of what you say, although you have made some spurious assumptions about my generalisations.

In order to discuss the state of the global environment, it is necessary to make certain generalisations regarding the West and the Third World. The fact that the West has historically benefited from the lion’s share of the world’s wealth does not mean that everyone in the West is living an affluent lifestyle. I am not naïve enough to think this, or try to imply that this is the case. I know that the UK is one of the richest countries in the world, but so far as personal wealth is concerned, we all know that control over this rests in the hands of very few. I know that there are extremes of affluence and poverty within the countries in the West, but poverty in the West does not compare with the widespread privation and absence of any hope that exists in the Third World. This generalisation is necessary, as it is the West that has historically exploited the Third World, irrespective of wealth distribution within the West, and we cannot negate history.

You do not name the two adjoining areas that are two miles up the road from you, but Bearsden and Drumchapel seem to come to mind. I have heard life expectancy statistics relating to these two areas before, and I also think that it is utterly unacceptable that this is the case within the bounds of the UK.

I know that you are coming to this debate from a different angle from me, and I can also see that we have some common ground, but this does not make my analysis metaphysical. I think that you are seeing this as a worldwide class struggle, when in fact there is a distinct geographical dimension to it, and the class structure across the world is so different that we are comparing chalk and cheese.

Although you say that you personally are not on the side of George Bush, living in a democratic country, we have appointed a government under the electoral rules, who have chosen to back the US in many areas of policy, and whether we like it or not, by representing us internationally, they have put us all on Bush’s side, maybe an unpalatable fact to many, but nevertheless a fact. Both Bush and Blair have been re-elected, so they must be pleasing someone, although obviously not ionnsaigh. To illustrate, we may not all think that the smoking ban is fair, but we all have to abide by it, as we elected the MSPs to act on behalf of us.

I don’t speak for myself when I say that Homo sapiens is the only species on the planet that has the intelligence to exploit and plan to do so. I am stating an established scientific fact. You have stated that the responsibility for the economic social and environmental mess that the planet is in is down to the economic system of capitalism, I would ask you; who is responsible for the development of the economic system of capitalism? The answer to this must be Homo sapiens. You are, in fact, agreeing with me that the concept of homo economicus is the main obstacle to the development of the human race to a more altruistic and caring global environment.

Your vision for a more caring world, although commendable, is more metaphysical than my analysis. The world order will not change unless the nature of homo sapiens changes, and there is no likelihood of that happening.

If religion can’t give us a peaceful and caring coexistence, what hope is there for politics?

[ionnsaigh]

EMDEE

If I could deal with your last point first." If religion can't give us a peaceful and caring coexistence, what hope is there for politics?." No religion will ever lead to peace, as it is based on a number of false beliefs. The principal being chiefly that some form of omnipotent power exists. This hangover from the cave dwellers of past times is slowly -yet surely disappearing- like snow on a dyke, exposed to the heat of the day. As Man first ventured from the darkness of the cave he saw shadows, his brain, propotionately the size of a present day cat, couldn't understand the concept of sunlight - he could however feel fear.
These Two ingredients- Ignorance Fear are found in all false judgements. God never made Man- rather Man made God.
You mention that there is no likelihood that the nature of Homo-sapiens changing. The reality of the matter is that change is a inevitable constant, we are all in the process of change, every living thing on the Planet is in the process of change. All animals including Man has the ability of intelligence it varies only by degree. I will attempt to answer your other stimulating points at a later stage.

[ionnsaigh]

EMDEE

If I could deal with your last point first." If religion can't give us a peaceful and caring coexistence, what hope is there for politics?." No religion will ever lead to peace, as it is based on a number of false beliefs. The principal being chiefly that some form of omnipotent power exists. This hangover from the cave dwellers of past times is slowly -yet surely disappearing- like snow on a dyke, exposed to the heat of the day. As Man first ventured from the darkness of the cave he saw shadows, his brain, proportionately the size of a present day cat, couldn't understand the concept of sunlight - he could however feel fear.
These Two ingredients- Ignorance Fear are found in all false judgements. God never made Man- rather Man made God.
You mention that there is no likelihood that the nature of Homo-sapiens changing. The reality of the matter is that change is a inevitable constant, we are all in the process of change, every living thing on the Planet is in the process of change. All animals including Man has the ability of intelligence it varies only by degree. I will attempt to answer your other stimulating points at a later stage.

You can't compare poverty with poverty as it is relative measurement- what we can do however is identify the internal contradictions of the Capitalist Economic system. The exploitation of the majority of Human beings - by a minority of Human beings. The exploited are great in numbers, the true rewards of their labour - stolen by the few. This daylight robbery is sanctioned by the State and Church. to make matters more ridiculous we have a Socialist Government, and this is all we can expect from the Middle Class riddled Labour Party, forget the Poor - lets have a war or Two. This behaviour is unacceptable , this reliance on a system that leaves a third of our dear People, to a live of suffer and strife- is Hell on Earth to the Poor- and those of fair mind. That is why I decided to stand and fight.
Our time will come.

[Bobbie En Tejas]

No religion will ever lead to peace, as it is based on a number of false beliefs.

There is more chance of there being a god, as a matter of fact, more chance of you being one, than there is of man pulling itself together in love and harmony and making the world that you envision, without war, poverty and disease.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." You have a strong faith in what you hope will happen, but narry an evidence on earth that it is possible. You, sir, have religion.

[EMDEE]

Ionnsaigh

Without wishing to appear dismissive, we are conducting a pointless ping-pong of our opinions as to how we each perceive the state of the world. We see it from different angles and perspectives. You say that you are trying to change it. There are people who have been trying to do that for centuries, and we still have the current scenario. I recognise the sincerity of your beliefs and the right that you have to hold these beliefs, but still think that you are pissing into the wind.

[Surfbored]

ionnsaigh, sorryu dude, I have no wish to interupt your hippyish utopian dream.

However, there are some people who can't pronounce altruism,although they might hit you over the head with a baseball bat or pop a cap in yo ass to feed their family. (or their drug habit).

Mankind is a diverse breed, if we all thought alike and wanted the same things from this life, how boring would that be?

Being bookread and idealistic would buy you about 5 seconds of good grace on the mean streets.

[ionnsaigh]

Ionnsaigh

Without wishing to appear dismissive, we are conducting a pointless ping-pong of our opinions as to how we each perceive the state of the world. We see it from different angles and perspectives. You say that you are trying to change it. There are people who have been trying to do that for centuries, and we still have the current scenario. I recognise the sincerity of your beliefs and the right that you have to hold these beliefs, but still think that you are pissing into the wind.

ping