US policies - Guantanamo and the military

[dunoon]

don't applaud for some Hitleresque fear driven fashion, they are applauding the uniform, it's their way of being patriotic, they applaud the service people for doing a job they wouldn't do, because here, the service people are seen to be the defenders of their freedom. They firmly believe that if it were not for the might of the US Armed forces, they would not have their freedoms, real or perceived (that's another arguement). What is so bad about being patriotic anyway?

Sweltered, have only been in the States once and that was during the Annual Memorial Day Holiday on the last Monday in May and have to say that I was actually shocked at the lack of respect on a day set aside for those who died in their nation's service.

I was staying in Hoboken, New Jersey at a girlfriend's house and we went out for a walk that afternoon. Popped into one of the many bar's that Frank Sinatra was supposed to frequent in Hoboken for a drink. At 3pm at the time of the moment of national remberance nobody in the bar apart from Amy and myself went silent, even although all the tv screens went blank. After the minutes silence Amy upset at what she had seen in the bar and in the street outside mentioned to the bar manager why they had not paid due respect and was told to shut up, but in not so polite a fashion.

Now maybe I have been in the wrong place at the wrong time but I was not left with the impression of a nation respecting their service people, especially considering that this this was in 2002, 9 months after the events across the river from Hoboken.

Maybe I am completely in the wrong here but it appeared to me that US citizens when in a situation or place like you have mentioned like sea-world, or at large sporting event etc will observe the playing of the anthem etc but when left to commemorate something on their own are not as respectful.

As I say maybe completely wrong but this was the impression I got.

Can't disagree with a man that quotes Camus

[dedalus]

doubt if a US general would say what Richard Dannatt just did. Thank god he spoke up - cos I am pretty sure U.S soldiers wouldnt have been spat at in a hospital in the midwest like ours did in the midlands, the contrast is startling- I think we need to allow our Military to speak up a bit more - save us from the double speak. Again if you havnt seen the film "wag the dog" go get it - it will cheer you up - but do nothing for your trust in politicians.

Ajax - you went for a drink in Hoboken? - respect - I was never that brave when working in Jersey.

[dunoon]

doubt if a US general would say what Richard Dannatt just did. Thank god he spoke up - cos I am pretty sure U.S soldiers wouldnt have been spat at in a hospital in the midwest like ours did in the midlands, the contrast is startling- I think we need to allow our Military to speak up a bit more - save us from the double speak. Again if you havnt seen the film "wag the dog" go get it - it will cheer you up - but do nothing for your trust in politicians.

Ajax - you went for a drink in Hoboken? - respect - I was never that brave when working in Jersey.

Wag the dog is a great movie - and you just KNOW it's based on fact. Anyway this is my last comment. Spleen having been vented in previous posts.
Hope y'all get to some sort of agreement.

[Sweltered]

I still don't see what the problem is.

Nice to see so many freedom fighters on a heroes list, but then again one mans terrorist is another mans freedom figher. Guess you missed all the coverage of Rosa Parkes' death, hours of coverage, or the 8 hour service for Martin Luther King's wife, which was shown live on most networks. (which I watched btw)

I don't care how long you spent studying the history of America. You've never lived here so you don't know. I studied the Russian Revolution, but wouldn't dream of basing my views on an entire country on that plus dodgy news reporting. Are you going to tell us all what Holland is like coz you visited there twice.

I couldn't speak on what people in Dundee were like, let alone what people in another country are like.

I can't say I've noticed the reaction during memorial day. Veterens day seems to be observed more. The average person is not the superpatriot that is portrayed, but there is a much higher percentage of ex service people than in the UK.

I still don't see what's wrong with acknowledging the people in the services, what harm does it do? I didn't invent it, it wasn't my idea, guess you've nothing better to get wound up about. I'm just pointing out why I THINK they do it.

So you don't want to acknowlege soldiers or sailors or firefighters (or did you? I can't tell , I didn't read it, don't have the attention span for p!sh that I once had) don't then. Theres plenty who do, personally I do sometimes to be polite. I support the troops, coz they were lied to.

I can only hope you are never in a position to need them.

[Sweltered]

doubt if a US general would say what Richard Dannatt just did. Thank god he spoke up - cos I am pretty sure U.S soldiers wouldnt have been spat at in a hospital in the midwest like ours did in the midlands, the contrast is startling- I think we need to allow our Military to speak up a bit more - save us from the double speak. Again if you havnt seen the film "wag the dog" go get it - it will cheer you up - but do nothing for your trust in politicians.

Ajax - you went for a drink in Hoboken? - respect - I was never that brave when working in Jersey.

No of course the US soldiers never got spat at. You should speak to a friend of mine Paul Brown, ask him how he was treated. Do you get protesters at the funerals of soldiers over there. It was so bad here they had to make a law banning the protesters .

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/5015690.stm


Are you suggesting that the Military should speak up in the same way they did in Thailand?

Wag the dog was an excellent movie.

[dunoon]

I still don't see what the problem is.

Nice to see so many freedom fighters on a heroes list, but then again one mans terrorist is another mans freedom figher. Guess you missed all the coverage of Rosa Parkes' death, hours of coverage, or the 8 hour service for Martin Luther King's wife, which was shown live on most networks. (which I watched btw)

I don't care how long you spent studying the history of America. You've never lived here so you don't know. I studied the Russian Revolution, but wouldn't dream of basing my views on an entire country on that plus dodgy news reporting. Are you going to tell us all what Holland is like coz you visited there twice.

I couldn't speak on what people in Dundee were like, let alone what people in another country are like.

I can't say I've noticed the reaction during memorial day. Veterens day seems to be observed more. The average person is not the superpatriot that is portrayed, but there is a much higher percentage of ex service people than in the UK.

I still don't see what's wrong with acknowledging the people in the services, what harm does it do? I didn't invent it, it wasn't my idea, guess you've nothing better to get wound up about. I'm just pointing out why I THINK they do it.

So you don't want to acknowlege soldiers or sailors or firefighters (or did you? I can't tell , I didn't read it, don't have the attention span for p!sh that I once had) don't then. Theres plenty who do, personally I do sometimes to be polite. I support the troops, coz they were lied to.

I can only hope you are never in a position to need them.

If I am ever in position to need them then it's already too late!
As to the rest I don't really care I was only taking the pish - i thought that was what this forum was about. Come next year Blair is gone Cameron wont dance to Bush's tune and the world will be a diiferent place.
Our respective views on what does or does not matter isn't worth a jot. What will be will be.
General why did you persuade me to book into this forum thing? Yep It's addictive but some folks take it way too seriously. I think I'll go back to DIGG it's much more fun

[Sweltered]

I still don't see what the problem is.

Nice to see so many freedom fighters on a heroes list, but then again one mans terrorist is another mans freedom figher. Guess you missed all the coverage of Rosa Parkes' death, hours of coverage, or the 8 hour service for Martin Luther King's wife, which was shown live on most networks. (which I watched btw)

I don't care how long you spent studying the history of America. You've never lived here so you don't know. I studied the Russian Revolution, but wouldn't dream of basing my views on an entire country on that plus dodgy news reporting. Are you going to tell us all what Holland is like coz you visited there twice.

I couldn't speak on what people in Dundee were like, let alone what people in another country are like.

I can't say I've noticed the reaction during memorial day. Veterens day seems to be observed more. The average person is not the superpatriot that is portrayed, but there is a much higher percentage of ex service people than in the UK.

I still don't see what's wrong with acknowledging the people in the services, what harm does it do? I didn't invent it, it wasn't my idea, guess you've nothing better to get wound up about. I'm just pointing out why I THINK they do it.

So you don't want to acknowlege soldiers or sailors or firefighters (or did you? I can't tell , I didn't read it, don't have the attention span for p!sh that I once had) don't then. Theres plenty who do, personally I do sometimes to be polite. I support the troops, coz they were lied to.

I can only hope you are never in a position to need them.

If I am ever in position to need them then it's already too late!
As to the rest I don't really care I was only taking the pish - i thought that was what this forum was about. Come next year Blair is gone Cameron wont dance to Bush's tune and the world will be a diiferent place.
Our respective views on what does or does not matter isn't worth a jot. What will be will be.
General why did you persuade me to book into this forum thing? Yep It's addictive but some folks take it way too seriously. I think I'll go back to DIGG it's much more fun

Your problem is that you actually read and understand the posts.

[general jack o'niell]

deleted due to apathy on my part

[Sweltered]

Couldn't resist posting this!

Here's the giant American flag they unfurled before the Bucs game, during the national anthem (they had to put the word on the big screen). This was closely followed by a flyover by 5 fighter planes (to the theme of Top Gun). You all would have loved it!! The pilots were picked up at MacDill AFB and taken to the game, got a standing ovation (Top Gun theme again!!!

AWSOME!!

[Old Willham]

Sweltered

I find it very ironic that the "Top Gun" theme was played as (lest we forget) Top Gun was a Hollywood fictionalised view of the US military. My concern is that there is a large number of people in the US and UK who base their views on war on claptrap like this with pretty boys and girls driving fast and living faster. As a recruitment film for impressionable teenagers it has been invaluable but as a reflection of US military life it is miles off the mark.

War is about killing people and there is nothing glamorous about that. War is about children burning to death in their own homes. War is about Soldiers being beaten and excecuted by people they don't know for a Government who don't care. War is about the slaughter of innocents in their thousands for the financial gain of a few. Rather than celebrating the fictional view of Top Gun it would be more helpful if we showed our teenagers film of the mutilated bodies lying at the side of a Baghdad street, the charred body of a soldier in his tank, the bloodied walls of a one room house where 3 generations of the one family were slaughtered, the expressionless face of a 4 year old who had just witnessed the murder of his parents and sisters. Perhaps then future generations would think twice before slavishly following their corrupt governments into financially motivated conflicts.

My Dad recently told me a story his Brother had told him about his service during WWII. He was in a regiment in France with a friend who was also from Argyll (they were both 19) and they came under sniper fire. They all ran for cover but when my uncle looked back his friend was lying in the open having been hit in the torso and was screaming for his mum to come and save him. For the next half hour he had to sit and listen to his friends pleas for his mum knowing that he could do nothing about it. As a parent this drives home the inhumanity of war. These are just children that we are sending out to face the worst horrors that the world has to offer. Rather than filling their heads with Hollywood nonsense lets tell it like it is.

[Bobbie En Tejas]

This country went to war based on a lie. This administration knew that the people of the United States would never agree to attack a country unprovoked unless something "as big as Pearl Harbor" happened, and unless its people truly believed they were in imminent danger. Something "as big as Pearl Harbor" did happen and this government (and yours) did lead us to believe that we were in imminent danger. People believed in the integrity of our leaders and yours. We may be gullible, but we are basically good people who believe our leaders and yours are also decent people. To be honest, I think had Bush been standing by himself, more people would have asked questions, but with Blair standing hand in hand with him, that cemented the credibility.

And we were wrong. 64% of Americans do not support the war.

I've been in the military. I also cringe when the anthem is played at sporting events. I strongly believe there is a difference between waving a flag and being patriotic, and sometimes the most patriotic people are the people who question the leaders.

Yes, war is ugly. And there should be dire consequences, charges of treason and crimes against humanity to those who knowingly lied about "imminent danger" in order to do what they planned to do in 1997, only waiting for the opportunity.

[general jack o'niell]

deleted due to apathy on my part

[dgraves]

a

I've been in the military. I also cringe when the anthem is played at sporting events. I strongly believe there is a difference between waving a flag and being patriotic, and sometimes the most patriotic people are the people who question the leaders

I question the leaders, the war, the reasons behind it, but one thing I don't question is my feeling when I hear the National Anthem. I will always stand with my hand over my heart, with pride, in a stadium or wherever it is played. This country gives everyone the right to speak their own opinion and to question...yes, even to question its leaders.

[Bobbie En Tejas]

I usually put my hand over my dates' hearts. Make sure they're still beating.

If a person feels as you do, then by all means stand and be proud. I just am not comfortable with it, don't think it is a measure of a person's patriotism.

[general jack o'niell]

deleted due to apathy on my part