£25 billion on upgrading Trident - why?

[ionnsaigh]

Wee Toon Ajax,
So the nuclear strikes that incinerated the thousands of Japanese Women and Children and Elderly, where in some way justified in bringing an early closure to the war in the Far East. You made a rather bold assertion that the Japanese authorities would not surrender, when the reality of the matter was quite the opposite. The civilian authorities met with the USA in order to negotiate terms. It is perhaps unfortunate that the USA and your good self have omitted this pivotal fact.

So in order to negate troop casualties, you would willing sacrifice non combatants such as wee children to the horrors of nuclear war, that perverted attitude has surfaced more than once since the mass murder took place.
Your liberal use of sweeping generalisations serves only to show your either naive or at worse have Racist tendencies.
You really have a big chip on your wee shoulder Wee Toon. How dare you accuse me of being in any way insulting to the people of Kintyre. I am a Scot, and as such will continue to voice my opinions re Kintyre or anywhere else in this country, you see I actually stay here.
As far as you buying me anything, that I'm afraid is an offer that I can more than adequately reject. Can I offer to buy you something- being in a financially independent situation- I would be more than happy to buy you a ticket back home. So maybe someone in Glasgow, according to your own depleted criteria has more of a right to comment on Campbeltown than someone who doesnt even live in this country. (Scotland)

[Sweltered]

The civilian authorities in Japan could have done what they liked, the military was running the show. That's why the emperor had to surrender, he was the only person the miltary would listen to. I love the way you twist things, I really do. Isn't everyones life worth saving. The military personnel were conscripts, and although many volunteered, their lives are no less valuable. Harping on about the lives of women and children, using emotion in every arguement is lamentable. How many women and children would have died if the war had continued for another 6 months or a year. How many would have died if Japan had been invaded by Russia?

What difference does it make where you are, you really are a sanctimonious person aren't you. What right do you have to speak about Kintyre, YOU DON"T LIVE THERE. Did you ever live there? It would never occur to you that someone who is outside the bubble looking in might have a better view. Someone who has experienced life out of the bubble, and has actually seen what goes on in the big bad world, and I 'm not talking about a week in Lanzarote, might just know a thing or two. I'm not talking about myself here, although I am entitled to voice my opinion. I have been know to admit I am wrong now and then, have you?

For some reason you always relate to things on an emotional level, and completely ignore the facts and figures.

Having been born and raised in Campbeltown, Weetoon Ajax will always have a right to speak about the town, as will I.

[Wee Toon Ajax]

Wee Toon Ajax,
So the nuclear strikes that incinerated the thousands of Japanese Women and Children and Elderly, where in some way justified in bringing an early closure to the war in the Far East. You made a rather bold assertion that the Japanese authorities would not surrender, when the reality of the matter was quite the opposite. The civilian authorities met with the USA in order to negotiate terms. It is perhaps unfortunate that the USA and your good self have omitted this pivotal fact.

So in order to negate troop casualties, you would willing sacrifice non combatants such as wee children to the horrors of nuclear war, that perverted attitude has surfaced more than once since the mass murder took place.
Your liberal use of sweeping generalisations serves only to show your either naive or at worse have Racist tendencies.
You really have a big chip on your wee shoulder Wee Toon. How dare you accuse me of being in any way insulting to the people of Kintyre. I am a Scot, and as such will continue to voice my opinions re Kintyre or anywhere else in this country, you see I actually stay here.
As far as you buying me anything, that I'm afraid is an offer that I can more than adequately reject. Can I offer to buy you something- being in a financially independent situation- I would be more than happy to buy you a ticket back home. So maybe someone in Glasgow, according to your own depleted criteria has more of a right to comment on Campbeltown than someone who doesnt even live in this country. (Scotland)

Sorry once again you are not telling the truth are you or your view of history is skewed. Certain elements of the Japanese government did send out feelers re surrender via Sweden, Switzerland and the Soviet Union - these being civilian members but the ones who controlled what was going on with regard to the war ie the military and the Emperor did not agree with this in any way, many preferring the country to go down the path of the traditional honourable Japanese method of death before surrender. There was no direct contact between the Japanese government and the Allies about this peace - unless you can point out somewhere that this was the case. These were the same people who only after the dropping of 2 atomic bombs and the Russian invasion of Manchuria decided to surrender to the Allies. Why didnt they do this after the Allies issued the Potsdam agreement - they could have saved many many innocent lives of their own civilians or was their own honour more important than that of their fellow countrymen. Not everything can be blamed solely on the Allies - if the entire Japanese government and Emperor wanted peace they had the chance after the issuing of the agreement - they didnt and they have to take a large part of the blame for the unfortunate actions which later occurred.

This is laughable you are now accusing me of both naivity and racism - you really are unbelievable arent you. Where in any way is my post is racist, please point it out in exact terms or if you cannot I would think that you have enough decency to withdraw that remark. If anybody is being naive it would appear to you - one thing I recognise about this world is that it is made up of many many very very grey areas where from your postings everything is so black and white. I wish the world was so simple. I dont condone in any way the mass murder of civilians nor wee children but I am intelligent enough to realise that throughout the history of this world and the wars which have been fought, unfortunatley many civilians have been killed. As intelligent human beings we realise we cannot turn back history to right the wrongs of the past but instead learn from them and try to make sure that they never happen again whether it be the use of atomic bombs, the enforced labour and starvation of POWs etc but typically as human being we never do seem to learn from the past.

With regard to the rest of your remarks I will treat them with the contempt they deserve. As you continually point out to people you are a Scot and that you live there and therefore you should have an opinion. Well good for you but if you look at the top of this forum it is called the Kintyre Community forum. As someone born and raised in Campbeltown which the last time I noticed was still in Kintyre and all my family still residing there then I have every right to make comments in this forum whether I live in Scotland or not. A part of my life whether I am in Amsterdam or anywhere else on this planet will always evolve around Kintyre, my birthplace and somewhere each year I am willing to bet I spend more time in each year than your annual summer vacation. So dont go telling me the rights and wrongs of posting on and I shall repaeat the KINTYRE community forum

And I still stand by remarks that you do treat people with contempt by your posts - just because you post long winded threads doesnt make you more intelligent or your point of view correct - in fact I would say the exact opposite. Anybody who has the temerity to disagree with you or even point out that you are wrong do you put your hands up like a mature human being and say I was wrong, sorry. No do you heck you will then go off on another long winded rant trying to salvage what credibility you have, which in this forum to be honest with you is not a lot.

Now finally why would I want to return home to Scotland at this precise moment - I am still young and have many years of living to do gaining insight into other cultures, travelling and always expanding my mind. But hey that goes again your principles doesnt it - you claim to talk about the rights of the working classes etc - well here is one for you, the right of a working class person to get an education, to use that education in a manner to gain a broad learning about life, to experience different things and to use his experience to actually make a positive contribution to the world instead of being a self righteous clown jabbering on a website.

[bill]

WEE TOON AJAX......2

IONNSAIGH.............0

[general jack o'niell]

hope ajax is coming home for xmas, wouldn't want to think he'll be greetin into his beer over the festive season thinkin aboot the folks at hame.

mind you, he was greetin into his beer the last time i saw him but that was for a different reason and if i had a beer i would have joined him

but it's nice to know that him and sweltered are fighting our corner from opposite ends of the globe, far be it for me to say that that other guy(can't spell his name and my ADD prevents me from looking it up while i write this) is talking mince, i'll leave that to those who have been involved in this thread from the start.

suffice to say, i notice mr. jack has been playing the job loses card concerning trident and the SNP, bad show jack, you shame the name, now he's doing the same thing with the defecit and downplaying north sea oil revenues. i think that 25 billion would manage to secure employment for 11,000 very nicely and since a majority, like my cousin (mod boat polis) would easily be transferred elsewhere, he worked at greenham common, stick the tridents in plymouth, it's nearer the targets and handier for booze cruisin (wee joke play on words there, cruise missiles, trident, och forget it!!!)

why can't we be more like the english? "Not In My BackYard" seems to work down there, besides scotland hasn't been under threat since the germans bombed clydebank, the more we distance ourselves from bush and blair the safer we'll be, not that it bothers me, can't say i've ever got up in the middle of the night worrying about wether i'd meet a suicide bomber in the co-op( an odd wifey fighting me over the reduced chicken maybes)

should maybe have put more thought into my first post in a while but i'm sticking to my credo i took up about ten years ago not to take anything too seriously and to lose my heid only over futile small gestures of insignificent petulance

[ionnsaigh]

Wee Toon Ajax,
What do you mean not telling the truth, as it was you who left out the very fact that the USA was approached by very high ranking Government officials in order to surrender. The reason you failed to elaborate are contestable , however what it achieved was a glimpse of your own weakness when attempting to put over a point. That indeed would undermine the logic of your conclusion that to drop the bombs saved countless thousands life's. Nevertheless it does you no favour. Now go over again the situation before the bombs fell. The Emperor and his Fascist military crew would not surrender, well actually they did surrender. The Emperor didn't go down that path of traditional honourable Japanese method of death before surrender did he?. The very fact that the vast majority of the Japanese people had had quite enough long before the time the yanks decided to deal the killer blows, not once but twice. There is no way on this earth that I would grant any degree of support to a fascist regime -one who treated our boys with barbarous cruelty. I would have supported the USA in there fight against fascism, however I draw a line when it comes to the mass murders of innocents which you describe as unfortunate actions.

Oh and a wee word of warning son don't shout at me with blue letters. Owing to time factors I hope you can wait until tomorrow before my next lesson.

[Sweltered]

WHAT A PATRONISING AR$E

[ionnsaigh]

Wee Toon Ajax,
Back to the slaughterhouse, there appears to be another aspect of this scenario that until now we haven't touched upon, chiefly human nature. How much time effort and money went into the development of these weapons, throw curiosity into the mix and you have a deadly combination. The US Military and scientists where dripping with anticipation at the prospect of using their new found deadly toy. If as you rightly say that the agreed perception was the Emperor would never surrender, one wonders why they didn't do the world a favour and get rid of the clown. You say as intelligent beings that we have to learn from past mistakes, to make sure that they never happen again, yet in the same breath you say, but typically as Human Beings we never do seem to learn from the past. This appears a contradictory statement. Both you and I know that we do learn, bearing this in mind I can envisage a time without the savagery of murder and barbarity of war, can you?.

As far as the Kintyre Forum is concerned, you are the one who first raised the thorny issue of pedigree, that is why I said that I suspected you of either having racist tendencies or of being naive. Everybody including the dug fae the Toon and we stick together regardless- appears to myself a form of inverted type of racism. If I have missinterpret this then please forgive me. Oh and by the way ,I'm sorry about the wee word of warning- that was made in haste and anger.
If by the high standard of your posts have anything to do with the education system in Kintyre then well done.

[Sweltered]

Since we shared many classes, I'll take that as a compliment too

[general jack o'niell]

i'm confused? who was getting threatened there? was it the moderators brother? or mine?





wormholes!!!! you sons of bitches!!

[Bobbie En Tejas]

Wee Toon Ajax,
Back to the slaughterhouse, there appears to be another aspect of this scenario that until now we haven't touched upon, chiefly human nature. How much time effort and money went into the development of these weapons, throw curiosity into the mix and you have a deadly combination.

Might I direct you to previous threads in which you believe that we can have this great perfect society, and I believe, because of human nature (the good and the bad), there will always be disagreement and conflict. If we were all the same with exactly the same experiences, visions and thought patterns, it would work, but even good, well-thinking people don't agree on everything. And how strongly they disagree with the direction something is taking dictates how far they are willing to go to assure it goes in their own direction.

(Pssssst.. gen... It was the moderator's.. )

[Pete Reek]

Worked with a guy once who was redder than Rudolph's nose. He just adored everything Communist, especially Soviet Union stuff.
We were all tossers and Old Joe and the boys had the sun rising out of their ar$es according to our co-worker.
However the suggestion that he should go and talk his gibberish to the masses in Russia ( like the offer to pay the ticket for yir man ) was usually met with the type of answer that a kid in Nursery School would come out with.

Not making comparisons you understand, it just came back to me while reading some stuff on the Forum.

Ajax, you are winning this debate by a country mile, and it's not down to you being a ex resident of Kintyre either. You are winning because you're putting forward all the right responses and supplying the facts to back up your statements.
If I was debating this with you I wouldn't only throw in the towel, I'd throw in the whole bathroom.
More power to your typing finger.

[Ship called Dignity]

I don't usually read the stuff on here but this is good stuff!

[Annie]

After the initial testing of the bomb and the making of Fat Man and Little Boy, Oppenheimer, a physicist and the inventor of such a horrible and deadly weapon said this:

If the radiance of a thousand suns were to burst at once into the sky that would be like the splendor of the Mighty One... I am become Death, the Shatterer of Worlds.

J. Robert Oppenheimer, Quoting "The Bhagavad Gita", Alamogordo, New Mexico, 1945
US administrator & astrophysicist (1904 - 1967)

Here is more about Oppenheimer"

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Robert_Oppenheimer

[judge roy bean]

whats needed is a house of representatives, made up of people chosen from within communities across scotland, not like councillors or msps but chosen purely to ratify the budget proposals of holyrood. if they want to spend 25 billion on trident then it has to come from within the defence budget which is proposed and put before this new body which can pass it or cut it, ie wee jack says we want to spend 25 million on defence and oh yes 25 billion on trident, new board says ok but your trident will need to come from your £25 million defence budget which we are cutting to £20 million.

that way budget gets spent on the things the people want it spent on, like cheap buckie for lanarkshire and a wall round milngavie to keep the drummies oot, oh and new roads and bigger pay for all council workers north of the west loch hotel with a checkpoint to keep the south kintyre underclasses in.


justice you sons of bitches!!!