Missing Toddler in Portugal

[Sweltered]

Leaving your kids unattended might be acceptible in your house, it aint in mine. Let me guess, nothing should get in the way of parents having a swally. This is never going to be acceptible, and the outcome of this confirms my view.

This is not up for argument and the mentality being shown is disturbing.

If condemning those who neglect their kids, and make no mistake this was neglect, if arguing against it makes me sanctimonious, then that's a badge I'll wear with pride:D

And Bobbi that was the whole point, they could have had someone look after them, but they chose to leave them unattend.

[Sweltered]

Ye gods, sanctimonious barely covers it.

Ok, here's your chance, give me YOUR argument in favour of leaving you kids alone to be abducted and probably murdered...

I can't wait to hear it. No waffle, you obviously disagree with me, so lets hear it.

[Beachcomber]

For someone who has made so many sweeping generalisations and ignored or distorted what has been reported in the media, I find it hard to believe you're capable of being swayed by anyone else's opinion or views on the subject, and so I'm not going to waste the time trying.

Your signiture strip sums up your attitude quite well, I think: "Sanctimonious, maybe..... At least I'm not a moron" which roughly translates to "I'm right and anyone that disagrees with me is an idiot."

Ho hum.

[Sheik Yir Erse]

Been following this thread for some time now, and the the division of opinion is clear for all to see, so thought I'd add my tuppence worth....

Should they have done what they did? No
Have I ever done what they did? No
Do they now think what they did was right? No
Will they regret what they did for the rest of their lives? Yes
Is it ultimately their fault? Yes
Do I feel sorry for them? Yes
Has the media gone overboard? Yes
Do I blame them for trying to use the media as much as possible to get her back? No
Is the resource being used disproportionate to what would normally happen? Yes
Is that fair? No
Would they have been demonised if they'd been on the dole? Yes
Would they have got all the attention if she'd been British but called Maddie Singh? No
Are they getting an easy ride from the national press? Yes

Not the same scale of things - but I remember taking my attention off my daughter (who incidentally is exactly the same age a 'Maddie') for about 2 minutes whilst looking at some new digital camera in the huge Boots at Glasgow Fort one day. I spent 5 minutes frantically trying to find her, along with shop staff and security guards. Amongst the worst 5 minutes of my life, and everything went through my mind in those 5 minutes - how could I be so bloody stupid, selfish, irresponsible, etc, etc.

Thankfully a woman found her crying and brough her to the attention of a member of staff.

People who've never 'lost' their child say to me, 'how could you have taken your eyes off her'? Well I did, and it happened.

What they're going thru is obviously a million times worse. They made a mistake which will haunt them forever.

Incidentally, on average about 10 children are abducted and murdered each year in the UK (that is, by strangers - the figure is alot higher when family members are taken into account!) Makes you wonder why so few of them make the news. Do you have to be photgenic to get on the national press, blonde haired and blue eyed like the Soham girls? Call me cynical of the press!

[Sweltered]

For someone who has made so many sweeping generalisations and ignored or distorted what has been reported in the media, I find it hard to believe you're capable of being swayed by anyone else's opinion or views on the subject, and so I'm not going to waste the time trying.

Your signiture strip sums up your attitude quite well, I think: "Sanctimonious, maybe..... At least I'm not a moron" which roughly translates to "I'm right and anyone that disagrees with me is an idiot."

Ho hum.

IN this case yes, because I AM right she WAS abducted because THEY left her alone. How is that distorting anything?
And as I guessed all waffle and no arguement, prove me wrong and I'll admit it. Go on sway my judgement on this. Convince me that what they did was ok. This wasn't a "take their eyes off them for 5 minutes". I've lost sight of mine in a playpark for a minute and felt the panic, but leaving them for half an hour or how ever long it was, is totally different.

But , I would still like to hear your argument.

[Annie]

I have to agree with Sweltered. Taking your eyes off your kid for a minute or maybe two while distracted or losing them inside a large store is one thing, but these people were on holiday in a foreign country, not down at the local Woolworths. They chose to leave them alone in a hotel room while they went to have a good time.

I bet they would have rather spent the few extra bucks for a babysitter now though!

It is sad and heartbreaking, but happened nevertheless. Children are blameless, that is why they have parents who are supposed to take care of them and protect them from such things happening!

This wasn't just distraction it was a planned outing by parents who CHOSE to leave their children alone for their own selfish reasons! If they didn't want to take the kids with them, they should have had a night in or did something that the whole family could participate in and enjoy!

That being said, I do think the parents are becoming media hounds, but then who wouldn't use every resource available if it was your kid that was abducted!

[ionnsaigh]

Sweltered ,
Why the focus on neglect , at the expense of the horror of child abduction. So they made a mistake and left the children unattended, not running about the site, but safely tucked up in bed, or so they thought. If that constitutes neglect then it lies at the smaller end of the scale.
Your posts reflect a type of hysteria that fails to address the real crime committed chiefly abduction. If you spend your time and effort looking at fault, you add distraction and divert the attention away from the true crime.
It appears you take the easy way out, all very black and white, a Two follows One type of argument.
Child abduction and Child neglect are entirely Two different matters, and on the scale of things you appear transfixed by the later.

[Kevin Mc]

Sweltered ,
Why the focus on neglect , at the expense of the horror of child abduction. So they made a mistake and left the children unattended, not running about the site, but safely tucked up in bed, or so they thought. If that constitutes neglect then it lies at the smaller end of the scale.

No-one would expect that there was a chance their child would be abducted if left alone in an apartment. The chances of that are miniscule.

However, kids that age should not be left on their own. Not because they might get abducted, but because they might hurt themselves, have an asthma attack, develop meningitis, drink bleach etc etc. Not highly likely, but what if a child woke up with night terrors in a strange place - who's there to comfort them? There's any number of things, some minor, some not, which the parents should be on hand to deal with. I think they have had a very easy ride from the press just because they were "professionals". You hear of people dobbing neighbours in to Social Services because they've popped down to the shops and left their children unattended. What's the difference when a Consultant Dr does the same thing?

This is not wrapping up the kids in cotton wool. This is basic care.

It's not their fault the kid was abducted, but they are responsible for putting the girl at risk by leaving her on her own. Not nice to say, but if they had stayed in, or taken their kids with them, this would have not happened. If it weren't for the initial "neglect", we wouldn't be discussing this on this forum.........

[Sweltered]

Sweltered ,
Why the focus on neglect , at the expense of the horror of child abduction. So they made a mistake and left the children unattended, not running about the site, but safely tucked up in bed, or so they thought. If that constitutes neglect then it lies at the smaller end of the scale.
Your posts reflect a type of hysteria that fails to address the real crime committed chiefly abduction. If you spend your time and effort looking at fault, you add distraction and divert the attention away from the true crime.
It appears you take the easy way out, all very black and white, a Two follows One type of argument.
Child abduction and Child neglect are entirely Two different matters, and on the scale of things you appear transfixed by the later.

OK so my argument is wrong. Are you implying that if the child not been left alone, she would still have been abducted? And unless you were there, how do you know she wasn't running about the complex? I saw more than one report saying she may have left the apartment on her own through the patio doors. (is that me ignoring or distorting news reports again ).
So it's alright to leave your kid alone, so long as they are safely tucked up in bed:shock: Which Big Book of Parenting did you get THAT little gem from.

And by the way, leaving a child alone IS a real crime. I'm not diverting attention away from the abuction, that wasn't the topic of the thread..from the start of the thread my point was on the behaviour of the parents, look back and read it. If you want to start a thread on child abduction go ahead, it wasn't my intention to do so on this thread. The whole reason behind my starting this thread, is that there was NO hysteria about the child being left alone hence the reason I was focusing on it

And you are quite correct, I have taken the easy way out, I haven't voiced my opinion of what really happened that night, and I'm not going to. This thread was about the parents leaving the kids alone. Some people have implyed I'm wrong, called me sanctimonious and said I wrote mince, yet none of them have a counter argument. Why is that? Is it because I'm right? If so, why are they having a go.......maybe we need a thread on THAT one...

[general jack o'niell]

the arguement is about three kids being left alone, the three year old tho sleeping had effectively been left in charge of two babies, that in this country is a crime, had she been ten it would still be a crime. was she awake when her parents left? did they tell her where they were going? did she wake and go looking for them, get confused and wander off in the wrong direction and her abduction was a spur of the moment opportunistic event?

none of these questions have been asked or answered, the bottom line is simple, if the parents had either eaten earlier and taken the kids with them, you know, the kind of thing all sensible parents would do, it would appear theres a few on here that don't come under that category, but then thats no less than i'd expect from some who the more they post the more they come across as the worst example of mouthbreathing knuckle draggers. or. they could have used the service provided for babysitting or the kids club which the children could have gone to while the parents had an earlier meal alone.

they did none of these things, they chose to leave three small children alone in a strange place, at night, tho you can't help but have sympathy for any family of a lost child i hope that for every day of the rest of their lives it scars them, feck the weans, lets go for drink, they'll be alright(theres plenty like that about, maybe a few on here) oh and the other two kids, i hope that when they grow up they disown their parents for putting them in such danger, remember if there was more than one person involved they could have easily taken all three kids, all this talk of her being taken for a childless couple is nonsense, she is old enough to remember her parents the other two young enough to forget in time so its not her that would have been taken to order, it would have been one or both of the younger kids.

so you go on, away you go out to the pub and leave your kids alone in the house, ok theres more chance of you coming home to the place alight and them burnt to death than there is of someone taking your kids, but as long as theres the slightest chance of anything happening shame on you.

[Beachcomber]

When your children are safely tucked-up in bed at night, fast asleep and dreaming contentedly, how often do you check up on them?

Every ten minutes? Every half hour? All through the night?

Do you shake them to check they're still alive and breathing?

Do you not sleep yourself? Perhaps you and your partner take it in shifts to sleep for an hour while the other sits in the children's room and watches over them. Every night.

If you do not do the above then, by your own yardstick, should you not also be judged a neglectful parent?

Parenting is all about making choices. Some of them very difficult choices, and sometimes parents get it wrong.

Usually the consequences of getting a decision wrong are of little importance but just occasionally they are monumental as in this case.

Alexander Pope said "To err is human, to forgive divine."

Repeatedly beating the parents over the head about it or calling them names doesn't help resolve the tragedy that has resulted. There is absolutely nothing that you could do to make these parents feel any more wretched than they already do.

We don't stand watch over our children all through the night in the fear that if we don't then someone is going to climb through the window and steal them away. Not around here anyway. To do so would be foolish.

The reported facts of this case are that the family were holidaying with a group of other families at a private resort with a first class reputation for being child friendly and a safe place to bring them. Portugal itself is a very child-safe country in itself.

They made a decision to leave the children asleep in their room whilst they ate at a nearby restaurant, making frequent visits to check on the children during that period. They weren't 'Boozing it up in a pub' although I would be surprised if there wasn't wine on the table.

They chose not to employ the hotel's own child-minding service which may have been foolish but if my experience of these things is anything to go by it is usually nothing more than the equivalent of a baby monitor patched-through to the reception desk, or staff patrolling the hotel listening for a child crying and calling the parents. It doesn't usually involve anybody actually being in the room with the child(ren) and even if it did how could you be sure that person wasn't themselves a risk?

I wonder how many other families have done exactly the same thing and nothing untowards has happened as a result? Probably hundreds if not thousands.

The parents are now being villified by some for keeping their daughter's abduction in the press and media. What should they do then? Forget about her and go home? Pretend she never existed? Assume she's already dead? Those of you that are reading this and have children, what would you do in the same situation, and please don't answer that it couldn't happen to you because it could.

I hadn't intended to comment further on this topic, and so apologise for the length of this posting.

---

ps As a child I remember family holidays to a Butlins holiday camp. The camp ran its own child-minding service which involved Red Coats walking round around the camp listening for a crying child. If found then they'd report in and someone would contact the parents. No-one appeared to find this unacceptable at the time but then that was 30 yrs ago.

[Sheik Yir Erse]

I really don't think there can be too much arguement against this.

The outcome or setting doesn't remove the initial 'crime', which is what Sweltered is getting at. The biggest crime here is the abduction, however only after the 'crime' of neglect allowed the abduction to happen.

Had the little one fallen and cut her leg - the parents 'crime' is the same.
Had a fire started and all 3 kids died - the parents 'crime' is the same.
Had Madelaine got out and been abducted in the street - the parents 'crime' is the same.
Had this been in the UK, and they'd popped down to the shops for 30 minutes, if something had happened they'd be charged with neglect. Thieir 'crime' is the same.

Sometimes changing the outcome and setting lets you see the true nature of what they did.

If my house was burgled I'd be annoyed at the burglar, if however I left my windows and doors wide open - I don't expect to receive much sympathy. The burglar committed the crime - but I provided the opportunity.

Personally we've never really considered using Hotel babysitting staff, and have always taken our child with us in her buggy so she could fall asleep. We can sit and have a meal in peace, have a drink if we want, and keep an eye on a sleeping child tucked up safely beside us.

[Sweltered]

How many kids are abducted from houses where the parents are home and the doors are locked, and they're not taken by a family member? Very few, I might be wrong, but I think it would very few. So who is makng the sweeping statements on here? I my view, and it seems the majority on here, there was no choice to be made here, so this doesn't come under one of those difficult parenting decisions, and if it is one of yours, then shame on you. This wasn't a wee error of judgement with disasterous consequences.

A family friendly place....if you get the name of rising early you can sleep all day. When my kids ask if they can do something because other people do it, I tell them they are not "other people", because other people do it doesn't make it right.

No one said they should go home and forget about her, far from it, they should go home and remember her every minute for the rest of their lives. They should be looking after the other kids. They appear to have been forgotten in all this.

[Sheik Yir Erse]

Beachcomber - I don't think you can compare not checking your children are breathing every 10 minutes whilst they are sleeping in your house and in your care - against leaving your 3 young children unattended in a room, in a strange place, whilst you were out for a meal. They are simply not equal arguements.

I wonder how many other families have done exactly the same thing and nothing untowards has happened as a result? Probably hundreds if not thousands.

Doesn't matter - I wonder how many people have driven home drunk and nothing untowards has happened as a result? Probably hundreds if not thousands. It's not the outcome which is important, this doesn't detract from the orginal crime - it's still the same.

As far as I'm aware no-one is on here calling the parents names, merely pointing out what the McCanns thought was responsible parenting seems unacceptable to the majority, and this doesn't appear to be reflected in the national press.

Your comment about Butlins 30 years ago. This is another example. To get to Butlins you probably went in a car, and more than likely wouldn't have had a seatbelt and would quite happily have been jumping around the back seats, climbing into the front seats, etc. People have become alot more protective of their children and society attitude has therefore changed. If you saw a child jumping about in a car today, whilst being driven, would you think this was responsible parenting?

[Beachcomber]

Your comment about Butlins 30 years ago. This is another example. To get to Butlins you probably went in a car, and more than likely wouldn't have had a seatbelt and would quite happily have been jumping around the back seats, climbing into the front seats, etc.

Afraid not, Sheiky. My parents couldn't afford to run a car till long after then. In those days we went everywhere on the bus.