WORTH CONSIDERING?

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Would you rather a ferry or a decent road in/out of Campbeltown?

FERRY TO IRELAND
20
47%
UPGRADE OF A83
23
53%
 
Total votes : 43

WORTH CONSIDERING?

Postby The Hitman » Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:35 pm

Here's an idea, what would you rather have, a ferry or a road? As it is obvious we shall not get both!! :roll:

What if we say to the government, keep your ferry for now, what we want is the money you are willing to use to subsidise any ferry and give it to us solely to spend on the A83 between Lochgilphead and Campbeltown on improvements and repairs until such times as it resembles an A-Class road?

Any thoughts?
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Postby WTC » Wed Oct 10, 2007 5:51 pm

Road: Returning from a funeral with my family we hit a pothole 1 mile north of the town. Damaged two alloys!

PS

Why can’t we fly Glasgow to Campbeltown and then onwards to Ireland?
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Postby LO » Wed Oct 10, 2007 5:52 pm

Hitman

While I totally agree with you that it is time that the A83 was properly upgraded and fully trunked all the way to Campbeltown, I'm very surprised that someone with your pedigree is so out of touch with political reality of the situation.

Firstly, although both the road and the ferry come under the general category of transport they are treated as being under separate headings for budgeting purposes.

At present, there still appears to be support for the ferry within the Scottish Government so there is still a reasonable chance it will happen. However, the case for the A83 has to be made more forecefully with both the Government and another bunch of Civil Servants as it currently languishes well down the pecking order for the ROAD budget. In other words, even if we said to the Government that they should forget the ferry, it would have precisely ZERO impact on the status of the A83. They would just say thank you, and the £5m would come off the table and be used elsewhere outwith this area.

On the other hand, although it is not immediately obvious, the re-introduction of the ferry and its permanent establishment would be the best thing that could happen to the A83. The reason is that it then becomes part of an international through-route to Ireland, France and Spain, and we are led to believe that as such the Government would then be obliged to bring it up to an appropriate standard under EU rules.
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Postby Sheik Yir Erse » Wed Oct 10, 2007 6:48 pm

LO - so ironically the poor state of the A83 could be preventing money being spent on the ferry i.e. if Gov spend £5m on the ferry, they'll need to spend '£50m' on the road? :? :(
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Postby John S » Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:30 pm

Might have been the thinking of the Labour Executive, Sheik but doesn't seem to be the New First Ministers position. Hitman I'm surprised at your question why shouldn't we have both. I'm sure the old man would be 110% behind having both. He'll hunt ye!
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Postby general jack o'niell » Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:38 pm

why can't we have both, and howe about moving some kilmory jobs to the town while we're at it? better still how about a boundary change? anything north of stonefield can be called kilmory, we'll stick with argyll name, its been worked that way for years anyway, theres a lot to be said for the old town council set up, was it really that bad? i'm too young to remember much other than uncle dan being a labour cooncillor, coulddo with a few more dans i reckon

just to make my choice clear, i go for both and damn the expense.
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Postby Ranald » Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:00 pm

LO wrote:At present, there still appears to be support for the ferry within the Scottish Government so there is still a reasonable chance it will happen


Is that really true tho? I'm not having a go at anyone locally as I know a great deal of work has gone into putting the best case forward, but are the politicians really behind the idea? Or, perhaps just as importantly, the civil servants?

How many years in a row is it that we've heard the same old "it's too late for next year, but maybe the year after" stories?
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Postby LO » Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:08 am

Well regardless of what happened before, for better or for worse we are now dealing with a different lot of politicians so only time will tell. However, for what it is worth I think there was genuine good will amongst politicians of all parties on both sides of the water and we were on the verge of a breakthrough last November before Peter Hain pulled the plug on the Irish funding for reasons that had nothing to do with the ferry.

You certainly have a point about the Civil Service where there has been huge antipathy towards the route on both sides of the water. I think there have been some changes in Edinburgh which may be for the better but I'm not so sure about what is happening over in NI. From my limited experience with them, the guys over there will need some firm direction from their local political leaders (as opposed to Westminster).

I thought long and hard about responding to the story in last week's Courier which really wasn't a story at all but blatant electioneering by certain parties in anticipation of an announcement which in the end wasn't forthcoming. In the end I decided it wasn't worth a stamp. There can be few people who have been following this saga closely who seriously believe that there was any realistic prospect of the ferry running in time for next summer given the tight timescale that would have been required to pull it together. Regardless of which party was elected in May, there was no prospect of any progress until the Northern Ireland Assembly was back up and running. This was the only show in town as Peter Hain had killed the Westminster route stone dead. Given that the ferry was hardly going to be the top priority for the new Assembly there was no chance of an agreement being signed and a successful tendering process taking place in the short window available before all the 2008 tourist literature is printed. Also, with the potential addition of an Ayrshire leg to negotiate, the old tender documents would have to be redrafted to take this into account. In turn, this raises a potential problem in that there is a PSO (Public Service Obligation) for the route between Campbeltown and Ballycastle which allows a subsidy to be paid, whereas the Ayrshire leg could not benefit from this because of existing routes from there to NI. Thus there is a bit of a tightrope to negotiate in terms of bringing Ayrshire into the undertaking without upsetting the PSO status of Campbeltown to Ballycastle. To this end the suggestion in the Courier that all that is required is a couple of signatures is just mischief making.

At present, I think we have to give the current administration the benefit of the doubt.
However if we are still stuck at the same point next year then I think we will finally have to give up on the ferry.

I have to say that it was disappointing to see the ferry issue being used to try and score political points in this way as up to now our politicians have always managed to rise above that and work together towards moving the ferry project onwards. Now that election fever has gone away (hopefully for a few years) perhaps we can take a calmer look at the ferry situation.

To go back to the A83 for a moment, I was heavily involved in the community campaign to get the old Scottish Office to repair and make safe the three sections of road north of Tarbert following the landslides of ten years ago. I can assure you that they didn't even want to spend money on the road when we were cut off from the rest of the world until we resorted to blockading Kilmory with the big lorries and threatening to do the same at the opening of the first Scottish Parliament. While we got a much better result than they were initially willing to concede, we had to fight all the way, and just to show that they retained the upper hand, refused to sort out the narrows at Erines when the machines were virtually on site (there was no budget for it!) That desperate part of the road could have been cheaply and permanently sorted but they dug in their heels to show us who was boss.

While I would support any campaign to sort out the A83 (It goes without saying that I think we should have this done and the ferry as well) I think we have to disabuse ourselves of any idea (implicit in Hitman's initial posting) that we will get a fair hearing with regard to the road. The idea of horse-trading the ferry for the A83 is a non-starter as the Roads people do not see them as interchangeable. Instead, they weight up the A83 against other roads, for example the A82, and decide where to spend their budget. Unfortunately, if you want to change this and force them to make A83 a higher priority, you have to be prepared for a long fight even if you can put together an irresistible case. You need resources such as a campaign team, PR and ability to lobby politicians of all parties and court the media. It can be done as we have previously shown, but it takes time and effort and a determination to stay in for the long haul and this should not be underestimated.
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Postby LO » Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:22 am

Sheik Yir Erse wrote:LO - so ironically the poor state of the A83 could be preventing money being spent on the ferry i.e. if Gov spend £5m on the ferry, they'll need to spend '£50m' on the road? :? :(


Sheik - don't know if it has been a major factor - for instance I don't think someone in Edinburgh is running around saying kill that ferry plan or we'll end up with this huge bill for the A83. I'm sure it's at the back of somebody's mind but it seems to much like joined-up thinking to be a significant factor. Don't forget also, that this could be deferred until the route was considered to be permanent (when would that be?) and if they did end up having to do it, I'm sure that they would have their hand out for European cash sooner than you could blink.

From previous experiences, there are probably myriad ways that they could avoid doing anything with the A83 until it becomes absolutely necessary and whatever they say it is not always wise to take them at their word!

For example, I remember at the time of the big landslides on the A83 that one of the reasons they said they could not sort out the narrows at Erines was that there was no funding available for this and the cost was being directly met from the Roads Dept emergency budget. Six months after the work was finished, Lo and Behold, a sign appeared acknowledging the financial assistance the project had received from Europe!
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Postby petewick » Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:51 pm

general jack o'niell wrote:why can't we have both, and howe about moving some kilmory jobs to the town while we're at it? better still how about a boundary change? anything north of stonefield can be called kilmory, we'll stick with argyll name, its been worked that way for years anyway, theres a lot to be said for the old town council set up, was it really that bad? i'm too young to remember much other than uncle dan being a labour cooncillor, coulddo with a few more dans i reckon

just to make my choice clear, i go for both and damn the expense.




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Postby Glory Blazer » Fri Oct 12, 2007 10:40 am

Some interesting reading in this thread, find myself agreeing and disagreeing with a lot of opinions, so from what your saying Les is that once the ferry is up and running this will open the door for millions of pounds to be spent in Kintyre, upgrading the roads? I sincerely hope that is the case and would be a long overdue but welcome development.

By reading todays courier, it would appear that an elected member is only interested in working for the council and not the people of Kintyre. I am very disappointed to read that, especially after casting my vote in his favour!

I don't see why, Argyll & Bute Council should be tendering for work on Roads if it means they are unable to maintain the ones they are legally obliged to. Lets just hope this negligence doesn't result in injury to someone travelling our roads/tracks due to the lack of road maintenance in Kintyre!!
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Postby John S » Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:50 pm

Glory Blazer wrote:
By reading todays courier, it would appear that an elected member is only interested in working for the council and not the people of Kintyre. I am very disappointed to read that, especially after casting my vote in his favour!

I don't see why, Argyll & Bute Council should be tendering for work on Roads if it means they are unable to maintain the ones they are legally obliged to. Lets just hope this negligence doesn't result in injury to someone travelling our roads/tracks due to the lack of road maintenance in Kintyre!!


Well sorry to disappoint Glory Blazer and, as I have said before, I'm happy to debate issues as a councillor for South Kintyre on this forum but not with people who use a pseudonym, so if you want to post under your own name I'll see if I can help you come to a clearer understanding.
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Postby Sheik Yir Erse » Fri Oct 12, 2007 1:16 pm

John S wrote:I'm happy to debate issues as a councillor for South Kintyre on this forum but not with people who use a pseudonym


Is a person's point invalid, because you don't know their name? :shock: :shock: :shock:
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Postby Glory Blazer » Fri Oct 12, 2007 1:19 pm

Pseudonym or not, it does not detract from the issues at hand.

Why do you consider it important to take our Roads team up to Mid Argyll and do work for another company, whilst in the process pushing the much needed road repairs in Kintyre even further down the pecking order? I am only curious as I one of the main reasons I gave you my vote was because I was sure you were the right candidate to take Kintyre forward.
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Postby Mo* » Fri Oct 12, 2007 1:21 pm

How to win friends and influence people, eh.

Rotten excuse from John S.

He knows lots of people on here, people who deserve a proper explanation. Or is this just a dodge to avoid responding?
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