Poverty research needs you!

[Bobbie En Tejas]

You grew up with your father. You were lucky..

Don't assume that because someone doesn't agree with you that they don't understand.

[Sweltered]

The suggestion that poverty is inherited, is probably true, so how can you not blame the parents? My point is that it is not necessarily the way it has to be. I got my father's name, and a pair of cufflinks when he died, I still have both, yet I have a nice house, and a couple of cars. What I DID get from him was a good work ethic. Now before everyone jumps off the deep end, I'm not saying all poor people are lazy. What I am saying is, those who are prepared to work, and advance themselves are less likely to live in poverty....

Oh and I only have a couple (2) of beers or glasses of wine per week, I don't smoke and I don't take drugs, maybe that has something to do with it......

[ionnsaigh]

Bobbie, experience is down to circumstance - not having experience - isn't necessary a fault of the individual.
It serves only to complicate true understanding of any given thing. In many ways I paid you a moral compliment by assuming that you have never experienced poverty - and therefore lacked a true understanding. It seems I was mistaken - you burned your finger on the fire - you stand stripped of moral reasoning - as to your attitude towards the poor. What happened other than the blind pride . Pride is an insidious beast when confronted by a starving child - as it puts itself in front of the needs of the child. As an Atheist I constantly wonder what constitutes Christian
teachings - relating to the poor - Why?.

[ionnsaigh]

Sweltered, yours is an old argument - one that concentrates on the size of the spoon - as opposed to the size of the pot. Hard work is only half the equation - the amount rewarded has to be included in any analysis. Both the surgeon and the labourer can work equally hard - each employing the protestant work ethic- however each will receive different levels of reward. Your view fails to take this factor into account. The rich can smoke and drink as much as they want - nobody dares question the size of their spoons - even less the size of their pots.

[ionnsaigh]

General, how many poor people are buried in the mass paupers grave at the cemetery? Poverty has existed in Kintyre for thousands of years - you are wrong to think of it as a new phenomenon.

[Sweltered]

Sweltered, yours is an old argument - one that concentrates on the size of the spoon - as opposed to the size of the pot. Hard work is only half the equation - the amount rewarded has to be included in any analysis. Both the surgeon and the labourer can work equally hard - each employing the protestant work ethic- however each will receive different levels of reward. Your view fails to take this factor into account. The rich can smoke and drink as much as they want - nobody dares question the size of their spoons - even less the size of their pots.

Indeed it is only half the equation, however, what I said was

those who are prepared to work, and advance themselves are less likely to live in poverty....

There has to be a driving force to "better" yourself, and improve your lot. There is no nobility in poverty, don't work hard and complain about being poor, do something about it. What's wrong with striving to get a bigger spoon? Just because you were handed a t-spoon at birth doesn't mean you can't qork towards getting a ladle.

Why is there always a suggestion that those who pull themselves up by their bootstraps should feel guilty about it...[/b]

[ionnsaigh]

The pot Sweltered - the pot.

[hugh]

Absolutely right Sweltered. The only world you can be sure of changing is your own. Nothing to feel guilty
abut at all. Good luck to you and yours in the new world.

[ionnsaigh]

Hugh, I take the view that if one is poor - then we are all poor.

[Sweltered]

The pot Sweltered - the pot.

It's down to the individual as to how much he or she sups. Too many stand with their spoon in one hand waiting for the pot to come to them. If you can't get to the pot, that's a different matter, but why should I feel bad for those who squander their portion, large or small, and make no attempt to get a bigger spoon.

[Bobbie En Tejas]

Sweltered, some expect others to hold the spoon for them.

Ionns, I was listening to a whiner.. er.. I'm sorry, poor person downtrodden by society, a couple of days ago in a conversation who was quite bitter about the fact that he had nothing, while his PARENTS were enjoying themselves on a boat. The man is in his 40s and was incensed when I suggested that parents have no responsibility over grown children.

There are victims in the class of poor people, but there are also people who aren't victims. When you include the possibility that in first world countries there are many poor who are not victims but culprits, I think you'll have a more balanced opinion. Why blame a whole society when one man can make a difference to his family?

[Bobbie En Tejas]

...As an Atheist I constantly wonder what constitutes Christian
teachings - relating to the poor - Why?.

There are thousands and thousands of food kitchens, shelters, clothing centers etc, set up by churches all over the US. Our local supermarket (I love H.E.B.) has a program in which you use a coupon worth $1 and $2 available at the cashout that will add that much to your total. The donation provides food for people who need it.

Our utility company has the option to add an amount to your payment that goes to put into the pot to help pay someone else's bill. When the weather gets too hot, there are dropoff centers in town for people to bring brand new fans they purchase to give to elderly people and people in need who don't have air conditioning and need fans.

I worked for the Katrina victims and had my name on two lists in case a stranger needed a place to stay. Fortunately, the katrina victims were taken care of quite quickly, a whole city with a population of over a million taken in and taken care of by the generosity of millions of others, as well as government programs.

In a communist society, taking care of the citizens would be the government's obligation and not citizen to citizen. I'm not sure a government could support that kind of obligation. Ionns, I realize the difference in our thinking. I believe in less government and more individual obligation to each other and personal responsibility to oneself and one's family, and I think you believe in more government to take care of everyone.


Was your meeting a success, Louise?

[£3.73]

anyone that looks towards the Government to take care of them deserves all they get !

I look at my own parents who paid into the system all their working lives only to get taxed on their private pensions .... wtf is that about ? (you pay a voluntary pension from your bottom line, ie. taxed income)

The goalposts get moved all the time ... and I confidently expect NOT to get a state pension or pretty much anything else from the state (not unless they can sell off my assets to pay for it).

I like the hippy approach above, although I have serious doubts it would ever work porperly.
Sure in a disaster it works, but if the disaster were big enough, I think I can safely say charity would begin at home.,,,,, every man for himself kinda thing ....

How much tax can an individual be expected to pay , only to feel morally bankrupt that they can't give more to their fellow man?

[Sheik Yir Erse]

Here we go - poverty again.

I'll tell you what my problem with 'poverty' is ........ much of the measurement is comparative, it's based on percentages below average. So my arguement is that there will always, by the nature of the definition, be people who are in "poverty". I read of a case recently where poverty in children was being cited because certain children didn't have a PS2. Comparatively they felt poor in relation to their peers WTF is all that about?

That's not MY definition of poverty, or for that matter (I'm guessing) that of most people on here. These are the figures posted by the same old left-wing socialist publishings. Ionns comes on here constantly berating how we're all brainwashed by the right-wing media and then comes on in another thread and states.....

Fellow Scots are dying in large numbers through lack of decent living conditions.

..... and we're the ones who are brainwashed

I'm regularly having to step over the piles of dead bodies to get to my car in the morning. I wish they'd go back to weekly body collections in Glasgow

Not sure how many people there are on the Forum, who are actually poorer than their parents - damn few I would suggest?

Relatively speaking I was probably brought up in 'poverty'. The thing is alot of the people who are in these figures are either acutely unaware they are in 'poverty' or are there for a reason.

Let me give you this scenario. First of all I'll apologise for being like many of the earlier posters and getting off my backside and doing something. Anyway Ionns I'm probably one of these people you despise the most because I happen to own a couple of properties and I'm therefore one of those evil landlords . House No.1 has a young lady with 3 young kids in it, courtesy of DSS . She works in a pub down the road a few nights a week the other nights she's at bingo. Her partner, and father of all her children, doesn't 'officially' live with her, but he's there on days with 'y' in the name. He's also a builder. The DSS pays 70% of their rent - he pays me the rest - generally in £50 notes. He drives a BMW 5 Series and she drives a Vauxhall Omega. Officially she doesn't work. So there's another house in "poverty" for you according to the statistics. Poverty generally doesn't take into account unofficial money income, again ignoring income streams from a massive number of households who live at this level.

I also got hee-haw when my dad left this world, but as Sweltered said, what he had given me was a work ethic.

Think Bobbie hit the nail on the head re the blanket statements don't work. Not all of the poor are poor because they want to be. Equally their also not all poor because the rich man, the system, the culture and the society is somehow conspiring against them to keep them there.

There will always be 'poverty', it's just that poverty will through time be wealthier than it used to be.

[ionnsaigh]

Extract: Scotsman. com News
A nation still divided by poverty and inequality

FRASER NELSON POLITICAL EDITOR

Key points
• NHS data used to assemble map of Scotland's health
• Radical difference in life expectancy between areas within cities
• Welfare dependency emerging as hallmark of 'Third Scotland'

Key quote
"Scotland's health is improving. However, the Executive recognises differences in life expectancy and mortality rates are significant and widening between our most and least affluent people. We want to strengthen primary care in deprived areas to address these problems." - EXECUTIVE SPOKESPERSON

Story in full TODAY, The Scotsman reveals the true extent of inequality across Scotland, in a devastating study showing the country's wealthiest suburb has a life expectancy of 87.7 years, while a boy born in the poorest area of Glasgow can expect to die at 54.

A child born in Calton, in the East End of Glasgow, is three times as likely to suffer heart disease, four times as likely to be hospitalised and ten times as likely to grow up in a workless household than a child in the city's prosperous western suburbs.

In contrast, Scotland's top neighbourhoods are shown to offer an outstanding quality of life, with high salaries, reasonable house prices and a life expectancy longer than the average for any country in the developed world.

Using NHS data, The Scotsman has compiled an extensive deprivation index, with data for the country's 830 postcode areas, and separated the top and bottom 100 neighbourhoods to show for the first time the scale of inequality in Scotland.

While previous studies have portrayed Glasgow as a national blackspot, with life expectancy the lowest in the UK at 69, The Scotsman study shows that some of the city's suburbs and surrounding areas offer a quality of life found in few other places in the world.

A boy born in Bearsden, Milngavie, Lenzie, Clarkston or Kilmacolm can expect to live to over 80, according to data for 1998-2002. But a journey to the eastern side of Glasgow finds life expectancy plunging by two decades.

Male life expectancy in Dalmarnock, Calton, Kinning Park and Townhead is below 60: Britain, as a country, passed this mark during the Second World War.

The Scotsman has disentangled the data and concentrated on two blocks: "Prime Scotland", which comprises the best 100 neighbourhoods, and "Third Scotland", where life expectancy is closer to the third world.

If Prime Scotland were a country, it world have the longest life expectancy in the world. The top international spots are occupied by Iceland (79.0 years), Japan (78.4 years) Sweden (77.9 years), Australia and Canada (both 77.8 years).

Third Scotland, by contrast, has an average male life expectancy of only 64.4 years - meaning an eighth of the men in the country can expect to die before the official pension age. This life expectancy is lower than in Bosnia, Lebanon, the Gaza Strip, Iran or North Korea.

While poverty is concentrated in the East End of Glasgow, inequality exists across Scotland. The difference in life expectancy between the best and worst postcode areas is 22 years in Edinburgh, 17 years in Paisley, 15 years in Perthshire and nine years in the Highlands.

Welfare dependency is a hallmark of Third Scotland - with unemployment rates (ie, those people seeking work) dwarfed by the number living entirely on benefits without indicating a desire to work. In Calton, two in five adults claim incapacity benefit.

In Hamiltonhill, 61 per cent of children are in workless households. This is true for 58 per cent in Drumchapel, where half the children are brought up by a single parent. In Bridgeton and Dennistoun, the level of drugs deaths (200 per 100,000 people) is twice that of the next highest area, Maryhill, which, in turn, is twice that of Dundee.

Most ominously, life for the poorest seems to be getting worse. The average life expectancy for those in Third Scotland fell by eight weeks since the last sample in 1992 - over the same period, it rose by two years for Scotland as a whole.

The study comes as John Hutton, the Work and Pensions Secretary, prepares to publish welfare-reform plans. He said last night that ministers realised Glasgow had problems and that the reforms so far - especially the Pathways to Work programme - had helped 11,000 off benefits in the past 18 months.

There would be more to come with the green paper, he said. "The proposals we will set out later this month will seek to remove the remaining barriers in the welfare system that can trap people in benefit dependency and poverty."

But Jim Mather, the SNP's economics spokesman, described the results of The Scotsman's survey as "a deep tragedy".

He said: "The social justice agenda is now in its 30th year, and it is manifestly not happening in the places of Scotland which need it most.

"What's making it worse is that people may feel they are better off on benefits. We should not rely on, or have to wait for, London to change the welfare system - Scotland needs full control over its economic tools, and an agenda which will not push everyone to the middle, but lift all the boats."

Iain Duncan Smith, the former Tory leader who set up the Centre for Social Justice to focus on inner-city poverty, said the figures showed Labour had isolated the poorest from the economic boom in the rest of the country.

"Gordon Brown has chased the poor with money, but this just takes people to a higher level of dependency that it is difficult to break out of," he said.

"You may as well hang a sign on some of these places, saying 'abandon hope all ye who enter'. In Easterhouse, we saw kids who had to get themselves to school and out of bed because their parents were laid out by drugs. This cannot be cured by money."

The study shows an almost linear relationship between welfare dependency and hospital admissions for alcohol abuse. And while only 23 per cent smoke in Prime Scotland, the figure for Third Scotland is 48 per cent. Income inequality is also pronounced. The average household income in Prime Scotland is two-thirds higher than in Third Scotland.

The highest life expectancy in Scotland is in the village of Bellsquarry, near Livingston. A former working-class area, it has been steadily gentrified and the average life expectancy is now 87.7 years.

A Scottish Executive spokesman said: "Scotland's health is improving. However, the Executive recognises differences in life expectancy and mortality rates are significant and widening between our most and least affluent people. We want to strengthen primary care in deprived areas to address these problems."

This article: http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=11972006

Last updated: 04-Jan-06 02:12 BST