Referendom

[ionnsaigh]

It appears that the case for a referendum is gaining momentum. Labour are desperately changing policy in Scotland.Particularly with what appears to be a very good first year in power for the SNP. They must recognize that democracy has at its very core - the natural right to be seen as a race of people - in juxtaposition - the function to achieve the right to self determination. In other words we are going to have a vote. Perhaps the most important vote any of us will make in a lifetime.

[Govangirl]

Right, we wanted controversy, so here goes......


I am Scottish to the core but this would be disaster for us all. Being part of the union without sacrificing its national identity is of benefit to us all.
And shouldn't England get a vote too?

[ionnsaigh]

No.

[Govangirl]

Yes

[Malky]

This will be interesting

I voted SNP all round last election. It's a long time since I did. But Scotland needed a change and TBH anything that removed Labour would have been good. Labour are too focused on the central belt and always forget rural Scotland. I've been impressed with the SNP government and what they've achieved.

Would I vote for full independence though? Probably not yet. I would vote for more power to be devolved north though.

Malky

[Sheik Yir Erse]

Govangirl - you're right, I think everyone should have the right to vote on Scottish independence, and this must include the English, Welsh and Northern Irish. Recent polls have suggested that the majority of English voters are in favour of ridding themselves of us 'whingeing jockos'.

So who wants to be at a party where the 'hosts' really don't want you, and you don't really want to be there either?

I have great warmth and affection for my English, Welsh and Irish bretheren, however I simply believe we'd make a much better job of running our country ourselves. I also believe this is an apolitical statement therefore, whether we had a Labour/SNP/Conservative or Lib Dem governement in Scotland, it would be better for Scotland.

I think when you look at the advances similar sized nations have made over the last 20 years e.g. Norway, Ireland and Iceland - Scotland has lagged behind it's potential. I don't have any hard and fast political ideology or economic statistics to back-up why this might be the case, I just think better decisions would be made for the betterment of Scotland by people focussed on Scotland.

We've led the world for hundreds of years, isn't it time we led ourselves?

At least then we'd have no-one else to blame!

[Govangirl]

So who wants to be at a party where the 'hosts' really don't want you

Don't agree, never had any of this response in my 30 years of living here.

[Sheik Yir Erse]

Govangirl - unfortunately, regardless of your personal experiences, a recent ICM poll found a majority of English now in favour of Scottish independence:

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,, ... 84,00.html

[hugh]

the natural right to be seen as a race of people

You know Ionns., if you were to change that to "the natural right to be seen as a separate nation" it would come across as a tad less alienating. You make it sound as if there should be DNA testing at the polling stations.

I'm with Govan Girl on this. I love both countries and I hate divorces. Don't let prejudice determine your politics.

[ionnsaigh]

hugh, Both you and Govan, and that aud bugger bill - should be excluded from voting. The people who live in Scotland should vote - English Asian Chinese Polish all should have equal rights - and a say in determining our future.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit

[ionnsaigh]

Right, we wanted controversy, so here goes......


I am Scottish to the core but this would be disaster for us all. Being part of the union without sacrificing its national identity is of benefit to us all.
And shouldn't England get a vote too?

The national identity of Scotland is under estimated by this British tag. english with a small e. If we where a couple, I could sue for divorce, on the grounds of cultural dominance by one, on the other.

[hugh]

The people who live in Scotland should vote - English Asian Chinese Polish all should have equal rights - and a say in determining our future.

That's better, Ionns....that was the bit I wanted cleared up. Nothing wrong with being English.
Toodle-pip the noo.

P.S. I'd love to see Bill's face when he reads that post.....

[Govangirl]

If we were a couple, I could sue for divorce, on the grounds of cultural dominance by one, on the other.

I'm still reeling from that proposal!!!!!!

Ionns, if I were to put a spanner in the works, it is Scotland who now is the dominant one. Although we are supposed to be a united nation, we DO NOT have reduced prescriptions, free elderly travel, cancer care not available to your English neighbour, free elderly home care and free (to every Pole, Latvian, German, etc. but not the English subsidising taxpayer!) further education!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I applaud Alex Salmond and the SNP's political strategy. They know that, as has been mentioned on this thread by Sheik Yir Erse, the overwhelming proportion of Scots would vote against independence in a referendum because of this. Sothey have decided to goad the English into starting Ionnsaigh's proposed divorce proceedings. Free university tuition particularly, but much more, paid for out of the grant from Westminster, are just the opening salvos in a long war of attrition.

BTW, The Scottish elderly policy is now in complete disarray and ready to collapse:

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/la ... 3834286.jp

The ideal scenario would be for the SNP to shame Gordon Bloody Useless Brown to give the English the same benefits but I won't be holding my breath. Ionns, I know you don't care about the poor or the weak in England but be thankful at least for your added benefits. Fight for more but be careful for what you really wish and fight for it under the umbrella of a United Kingdom.

[EMDEE]

In the end, in a democratic society, it should be the majority will of the people that prevails.

Whether the other countries in the Union should have a vote is a different matter.In a business partnership, partners can leave without asking the other partners if they are allowed to.

It is interesting to note that in any debate of this nature, it is England that is singled out as the other party involved, when the Union consists of more than just Scotland and England. Because England has by far the bigger population it is perceived as some kind of villain. Why should this be?

The average English person is very similar to Scottish, Welsh and Irish in their outlooks and aspirations.

What I don’t like is the “wha’s like us” attitude, and the call for independence based on nationalist rhetoric and xenophobia rather than on informed judgement.

I personally cringe when I hear that dirge “Flower of Scotland” sung to an audience consisting predominantly of English tourists. I find it embarrassing and humiliating.

How many of the Scottish electorate would be able to give a yes or no answer to the independence question based on an informed and rational judgement? The whole thing is more complex than that, and we would need to know what the “business plan” was for the coming x number of years, and be able to assess whether it is realistic when looked at objectively. We are unlikely to get anything like this from politicians.

Having said all of that, I would also say that there has surely been something wrong with the management of this country, Scotland. We led the world in the days of the Scottish Enlightenment, and have made a contribution to the world that far outweighs our size and population. Why has our country not benefited more from this contribution? (or is that an example of “wha’s like us”?)

[Govangirl]

Why has our country not benefited more from this contribution? (or is that an example of “wha’s like us”?)

I liked your post Emdee but I do think the latter may be true. There is nothing more important to the well-being of a nation than Health and Education. In my opinion, Scotland leads the world in both. I would love to live in a country where University education was free and they took care of you when you were old, regardless of how much money was in your wallet -"Free elderly hames, pit awa yir purse, Jean!" These are the things that matter.

No matter where I go in the world, East or West, I would say that folk recognise the contribution made by Scotland. I was recently in Japan where I was lauded simply because of my roots.