Referendom

[ionnsaigh]

In the final analysis the law is the will of the people ( Tom Paine ) The business analogy is absolutely brilliant afterall the Union is a contract between nations. The Irish walked away ,at least those in the republic did. The other partners weren't too happy about this though. However given the choice, I would rather part friends than enemy. As far as seeing England as the villain , as it would be easy to do. The British union was forged by an Imperialistic English Crown. As far as having a business plan , the principal aspect of business under Capitalism is to make profit. I would nationalise all Oil production, at the first stroke of independence. The banks would follow suit. I would wipe the crime of poverty, of the map of Scotland once and for all. Your right EMDEE to suggest that their is little to differentiate between neighbours in terms of aspirations. An independent Scotland would increase our liking for our nearest neighbour. At least in terms of an equal status between friends.
It would take more than a trashy tartan advert, to sway my vote one way or the other. However if all else fails we can extend our democratic right to take up arms against tyranny ..

[Govangirl]

However if all else fails we can extend our democratic right to take up arms against tyranny ..

Knew it wouldn't take long for you to reveal your REAL thoughts!

[ionnsaigh]

Govan good god in all my time on this forum, I have never tried to hide behind middle class socialism. I am what I am .
A Scottish republican communist atheist Glaswegian punter.

[Govangirl]

Govan good god in all my time on this forum, I have never tried to hide behind middle class socialism. I am what I am .
A Scottish republican communist atheist Glaswegian punter.

Taking up arms against a peaceful nation is a tad different though. What excuse does Mr Bush have?

[Bobbie En Tejas]

None...


Now, to stick to the topic (most interesting thread we've had in here in a long time)

[Beachcomber]

The British union was forged by an Imperialistic English Crown.

I'm a bit puzzled by this, Ionnsaigh. Surely James was on the throne at the time the Act of Union was signed, so would that not make it an imperialistic Scottish crown as well?

[ionnsaigh]

Absolutely Beachcomber, no getting away from the fact that the Scottish aristocracy sold us down the river. However that is no reason for not gaining independence. Independence can be free of any right wing fascist content . We Scots are equal to any other group of people on this planet. That statement can be universally applied.

[ionnsaigh]

Taking up arms against a peaceful nation is a tad different though. What excuse does Mr Bush have?

Mr Bush, his ancestors took up armed rebellion against the forces of the crown.We are only asking for the chance to express our wishes by ballot. Peace Man. AN ave always hated poverty - ever since a wiz a wee boy. I have more in common with the English Working class, than the Scottish middle classes. However the time has come for real change, as we suffer in comparison to Norway or the Republic of Eire. We can give this country a real boost by voting for a free and independent Scotland.

[hugh]

Hasn't Ireland's recent prosperity come about as a result of joining the European Union? On its own it was an economic backwater. Are you recommending Scotland goes down that road?

[ionnsaigh]

Well if it worked for the Irish

[ionnsaigh]

It is interesting to note that Govan, hugh and I suspect bill - share similar views when it comes to change in the country of their birth. Is it something in the wattur Seriously though I suspect that moving home to another country , would be quite a traumatic experience. Even for the ones left behind ( Govan's Mother ). I can only imagine the mindset of someone leaving home to live abroad. A time when their is an expectation of change for the traveller. The insecurity that this would bring, is falsely compensated by reassuring oneself that things maybe different here - although things remain unchanged at home. Just some thoughts on the matter.

[Govangirl]

Seriously though I suspect that moving home to another country , would be quite a traumatic experience. Even for the ones left behind ( Govan's Mother ). I can only imagine the mindset of someone leaving home to live abroad. A time when their is an expectation of change for the traveller. The insecurity that this would bring, is falsely compensated by reassuring oneself that things maybe different here - although things remain unchanged at home. Just some thoughts on the matter.

Yes it is Ionns and to be honest, after all these years I am STILL homesick, particularly for my family. I still say "I'm going home" when I go back up. This isn't my home. I'm simply here, like my pal Sir Alex, on missionary work down here. I will retire and die in Scotland (preferably with about 30 years difference between the two!). My children are Scottish as far as I am concerned and their 'cultural background' (necessary here on school forms) state so.

If you got your wish for independence, would I stop being Scottish? My son applied to Glasgow University this year and was told that unlike Scottish students, he'd have to pay £3,000 per annum in fees because he wasn't Scottish. When did he stop being so? I wasn't upset at the thought of paying fees, it was the idea that he was English!!!!

So yes, you are right, it is indeed a trauma, and will always be. Thank goodness I'm not the other end of the world, I couldn't handle it.

[ionnsaigh]

Surely Glasgow University rejected your sons claim, on the grounds that he doesn't reside in Scotland. Rather than not being Scottish - if that is not the case, then I would make strong appeal - after al he is entitled to play football for Scotland.

[ionnsaigh]

Oh and another thing by the way - you are on the other side of the world, in merrie England.

[Govangirl]

Surely Glasgow University rejected your sons claim, on the grounds that he doesn't reside in Scotland. Rather than not being Scottish - if that is not the case, then I would make strong appeal - after al he is entitled to play football for Scotland.

No, he had to pay because he was 'English' - not because he doesn't reside in Scotland. He'd get it free if he lived in France, Germany, Poland, Latvia, Romania....................... They don't live in Scotland!

And sadly, he would prefer to play rugby for Scotland, the middle class, Grammar School get!!!!!!

But when my middle son is the top player in Scotland and is just about to score the winning goal for them in the dying minutes of the 2014 World Cup Final, I'll march on to that pitch, drag him off by the ear and shout, "If he wisnae good enough to be Scottish fur yer Uni, he's no good enough to play yer football!!!!"