Bigotry!! Football problem or social problem

[Govangirl]

Sheik, you totally had me after your first three paragraphs. It was a wonderful, enlightening post. But I can't agree with the last one - yes, tribalism, with all its positives, exists in every society but religious sectarianism is something different. My husband took my son up to Glasgow to a Rangers Match 6 years ago for his 12th birthday. For the majority of the match, my son had a great time and soaked up the atmosphere of the game but with ten minutes to go it all changed and sectarian songs were sung. It got really nasty and my husband vowed never again to expose his children to that bigotry (and my husband grew up with a bigoted father which only made him loathe any kind of intolerance). So yes, you are right about tribalism but we CAN eradicate, or at least continue fighting, religious sectarianism.

[Hume]

Someone mentioned it earlier, it's not necessarily about religious sectarianism, purely the tribalism that exists in almost every society on earth. Therefore it's human nature, we just need to try and reduce it's impact on our society as best we can, but we'll never eradicate it.

Hi Govangirl, when I made the comment that sparked this, and said I don't know how we solve the problems I wasn't being defeatist - I totally agree with you when you say sitting back and doing nothing is as bad as accepting it. I am all in favour if trying to tackle the problem of religious bigotry in Scotland, I just feel that, having been in Glasgow (I know it's not just Glasgow) for 11 years now it is not something that is going away any time soon.

But you are right, if we don't start somewhere, it won't improve on it's own.

I suppose what I was meaning is essentially what Sheik has said above.

My own view is that deep down we (I'm trying not to point the finger) are not as bigoted in this country as it appears. However, with two large football clubs in the one city, a city with a large population of Catholics and Protestants, genuine football rivalry spills over in to something much worse.

I believe there are many out there who are not actually anti-Catholic or anti-Protestant, but are in fact simply rival fans. The sad fact is too many are willing to get caught up in petty squables, fights and unfortunately fatal attacks with/on their fellow, football fans, Glaswegians and Scots over the colour of a jersey.

Were it not for the existance of Rangers and Celtic I truely believe we would not be on here debating this. That's not to say sectarianism wouln't exist - there are clearly those whose do not fall in to the category I've described - but I truely believe we would not see people killing each other over religion in Scotland in 2008, were it not for what is perhaps otherwise the greatest club match in world football.

So is it a football problem alone? no I don't think so. Is it a social problem? I suppose it is..but I don't think it would be as bad were it not for the football - back to square one. The two go hand in hand a I cannot see how we defeat it.

[Govangirl]

Yes, you and Sheik are probably - no, you ARE both right - that there is very little we can do as both of you have realistically argued. However, I simply refuse to believe that we cannot change it in the future, starting now with young kids. We have tackled racism and homophobia successfully so let's do the same with this nonsense.

I'll meet you in a pub in Glasgow, 25th May, 2028, 2pm and I bet it doesn't exist.

[A Horse called Juan Face]

[. Other than these most rangers fans are blinded by the sectarianism. .

Thats actually a really unfair statement, I apologise. I was just upset cos i was reading Tommy Burns video comments on youtube and some of the comments left by people claiming to be rangers fans were absolutely sickening. Tommy was worth 100 of these people.

[daftdog]

Other than these most rangers fans are blinded by the sectarianism. .

Thats actually a really unfair statement, I apologise. I was just upset cos i was reading Tommy Burns video comments on youtube and some of the comments left by people claiming to be rangers fans were absolutely sickening. Tommy was worth 100 of these people.

I stopped looking at and reading anything to do with the old firm on youtube long ago, as there are to many people who fit the name of the website perfectly. Anonymous people on-line are anonymous people in life, not worth getting upset about.

[ionnsaigh]

One sad historical fact - that refuses to be eliminated - by middle class rantings - the lets share the blame brigade - is that Scotland has a shameful record - of religious discrimination against catholic's.

[daftdog]

One sad historical fact - that refuses to be eliminated - by middle class rantings - the lets share the blame brigade - is that Scotland has a shameful record - of religious discrimination against catholic's.

Historical.. ionnsaigh, please enlighten us all on Scotland's religious discrimination against catholic's. I presume you will be talking about the reformation in Scotland.

[ionnsaigh]

The principal aspect of bigotry - is an inability to view an antagonistic division - in an objective manner.
Bigots are present in either side - As for trying to re-educate these subjective morons -then that would appear a very difficult path. From a communist point of view - one would have to examine and identify the cause - or causes in Society. The role of religion. The Reformation was more about bread than Theological disagreement - the Old Testament message that God was King of Kings - was used by the Presbyterian preacher John Knox in his open air public meetings. At the time the Catholic hierarchy - and all it's parasite priests and monks - lived in comparative luxury. The cost of bread had shot up resulting in near mass starvation. Do we really think that philosophical matters within the theological debate - preoccupied the minds of what was after al an agrarian society - where only the rich church offered any education - at a price - I hardly think so.

One particular problem of Racial and religious discrimination stems from the Irish potato famines. The blight forced starving desperate people over the short crossing to Scotland. At that particular time the Scottish Working Class had recently formed the first trade unions. The mineworkers where on strike for a ( penny an hour ) approx. By all accounts the strike was long bitter and protracted - resulting in near starvation for the strikers and their poor families. The mine owners decided to break the strike by employing scab labour - who happened to be catholic and Irish. This current problem stems from the economic relations of the 18th Century.


In today's Scotland - in order to bury this type of discrimination for good - then we must remove the institutionalised structures that gives rise to this division. The removal of all Religious denominational schools - would be a priority - education should be the acquisition of knowledge - free from the shackles of religious dogmatism. The sad fact that religion has divided - turned some of us into mere hate thirsty savages - serves only to dilute our collective strength and identity .
Divided and conquered we Scots.

[Hume]

ionnsaigh, can you give us some more info on this?

daftdog has asked for examples of how catholics have been descriminated against in this country and I'm not sure you've really answered that. I'm not attacking what you've said - I know very little about this.

So thousands, I presume, came over to flee starvation and some obtained employement. What effect did this have on Scotland's population, economy, harmony(?) etc

None of what you've said seems to point to religious descrimination, or perhaps I've just missed the point and that will now follow from you.

I'm asking cos I'm interested, not cos I disagree (or agree) with you and am trying to put you on the spot.

[A Horse called Juan Face]

Ionnsaigh, in response to your statement about the songs sung at Parkhead, check out Charlie and the boys, etc.

[ionnsaigh]

Ionnsaigh, in response to your statement about the songs sung at Parkhead, check out Charlie and the boys, etc.

Well thanks Horse - your response is akin to asking someone - to look out for the wee orange van in a ten hour episode of Thomas the Tank Engine - gives a break man. Would someone please identify the sectarian songs sung at Parkhead.

[A Horse called Juan Face]

Ionnsaigh, in response to your statement about the songs sung at Parkhead, check out Charlie and the boys, etc.

Well thanks Horse - your response is akin to asking someone - to look out for the wee orange van in a ten hour episode of Thomas the Tank Engine - gives a break man. Would someone please identify the sectarian songs sung at Parkhead.

Ya walloper! Its the name of a band. The etc is for other bands of the same ilk. Shows how little you actually know about the subject. Stick to talking about antagonistic contradictions. Oh no dont do that either.

[ionnsaigh]

Aye of course I know they are a band - I have no wish to wade through a sea of Irish rebel music - to find allegedly offensive songs. Walloper.

[ionnsaigh]

Hume,
Lets take for example the social history of two areas of Glasgow. Govan and the Gorbals. The working population of Govan appeared to enjoy better life conditions than those in Gorbals. By conditions I include life expectancy and mortality rates.
The stark contrast in housing conditions - home ownership - employment status - ill health - educational achievement - car ownership - and a host of other factors.
Their appears to be a higher percentage of prisoners from an Catholic background in Scotland's jails. One could easily find similar circumstances - with the black populations struggle in America.
The chronic ill health and mortality rates are again higher in this group. The Catholic population was discriminated in other parts of Gt Britain also - so we shouldn't be surprised that it has happened in bonnie Scotland also.
Next time you see the Herald - remember that this newspaper group had an anti catholic - no catholic employed here policy. The shipyards apprentice schemes - where almost exclusively protestant as where the blue collar workers of Govan. Travel across the street to Gorbals - that is where you will find the poor the labourers and the unemployed.
The Church of Scotland with the United Free Church launched a campaign against catholic's that demanded the deportation of this " inferior Race " to Ireland. Anti Catholic parties enjoyed great success in Glasgow. Is it any wonder that discrimination exists to the present day. One positive aspect of the whole scenario however - is that over the last twenty years these gaps in equality have diminished somewhat - let hope that this trend continues. Perhaps the football terraces remain as bigotry's last bastions in Scotland - together we can stamp it out.

[A Horse called Juan Face]

Aye of course I know they are a band - I have no wish to wade through a sea of Irish rebel music - to find allegedly offensive songs. Walloper.

Only because you dont want to admit the truth.