Gordon Brown

[Govangirl]

You're so right but what we need is a Socialist.................except there aren't any left!

Is it possible I could vote for Tony Benn?

[four eyes]

stop it!stop it right now.

[EMDEE]

You're so right but what we need is a Socialist.................except there aren't any left!

What about Ionnsaigh?

Incidentally, I see Alan Sugar is backing Brown and says he should be sacking certain individuals within the Labour Party who are not backing him. He is also of the opinion that we would be in the same situation today if Cameron had been Prime Minister for the last year.

[bill]

The country is screwed thanks to a lack of thinking and the last tory goverment.

Yep,blame it all on the Tories even though it is more than a decade since they were in power.

[Govangirl]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/aug/03/gordonbrown.labourleadership


The latest: exactly the conspiracy we were waiting for! So rich coming from the most lying,hypocritical, despicable PM we've ever had. This man really does believe his own spin! He handed his legacy over like the poisoned chalice it was and comes out with this vile rhetoric.
Yes, Brown is indeed needing a BIG shake-up but hey, he could be a lot worse: he could have lied to parliament and started an illegal war with his best chum....then ran with his odious, parasitic wife before the mess hit the fan and let Brown take the blame for the failure of the Blair Government. Labour is driving Scottish voters in their hordes to vote SNP. When you get independence, remember to erect a huge statue of Blair to show your gratitude for his service.

And as for 'stupid boy' Milliband, we know who's been pulling his strings now!

Could we not just disband SNP and have Alex Salmond as PM seeing he's the only worthwhile politician we have in this country?

[gordon the moron]

I just don't understand it. Everything was going so well.

[Wee Toon Ajax]

Could we not just disband SNP and have Alex Salmond as PM seeing he's the only worthwhile politician we have in this country?

Govangirl, is Salmond already not PM of his country

[ionnsaigh]

Socialism mmm. I remember reading about a Polish intellectual, who calculated that there was roughly 167 types of socialism.
So spoilt by choice - where does one start ?. As your own particular brand may be quite different from others. A similar problem with the terms - democracy and freedom - exists. I suspect that when we discuss any of these subjects - middle class values predominate, and eventually obscure meaning. Why should this be the case?.
The middle class have better access to the media - they are far better equipped and generally more confident - they have received a better education, superior housing - higher standards of care - their levels of expectation are higher - than those of the working class. However the other side of the coin reveals, a sheltered existence - one protected from the harsher environment of the poorer classes. I'm reminded by the old adage, regarding the fundamental concept of experience - as being the principal aspect of knowledge. The great artist can paint a perfect apple - however if the artist has never touched or tasted the apple - can they truly know the apple?.
In saying that - who wants to live a life of deprivation?.
Socialism in Scotland must have ( the equal distribution of wealth) as the central tenet of it's character.
For someone like me forget the 167, or whatever the number. I'm much more able to remember one than two.
The maths are simple enough - you have three people, one has four pairs of shoes, the other one two, and the other none.
I'm sick to death of hearing the same old tired arguments - about hard working deserving individuals, who where poor students - a one brief interval in their otherwise privileged lives.
The answer is simple enough - take two pairs of shoes off four - give them to none. Everybody according to needs.
One pair of shoes is need - two pair are fulfilled wants - three is greed - four is robbery at the expense of the poor.

[Govangirl]

Ionns, where have you been? I've missed you.

No-one could disagree with what you have said but I know that you know it is not that simple. The problem might be that my idea of socialism isn’t your idea of communism? My whole childhood was spent in what others say was poverty but I never once felt 'poor'.
It is not just about sharing wealth but also about controlling it. There are people who I think deserve to have much more money than me – and it’s not footballers and celebrities. But somehow this idea of yours to ‘share and take away’ (i.e. your analogy about shoes) is, to me, the wrong kind of socialism because it goes back to the idea of controlling people and control of people and power is wrong. Remember power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely (think Blair). I’d rather have people having freedom and rights and opportunities to do better in life.
My socialism? We create wealth, we use some of that wealth on projects for the general good (roads, environment, health, defence) but also some of it for supporting the weakest in society who, for whatever reason, have lost out. But hey, I know it’s not that simple.
One of the worse things we created was the Lottery. I have never bought a ticket and never will. It says so much about the society we have created.

[hugh]

Ionns.

That was a great post - passionate, well argued and lucid. I know you're "sick to death" of being contradicted, anybody would be, but bear with me on this one while I play "devil's advocate."

To continue with the "shoe" analogy; if the one who is most capable of getting the shoes has to continually supply the needs of the other two, then after a while he/she may well start thinking "Why should I run a mile to gain a yard?." Likewise the two who are given shoes may well start thinking "We get shoes, why should we bother at all?"
Now, I know that's a simplistic answer, but it does encapsulate the fundamental flaws of communism...well, it does for me at any rate. I agree wholeheartedly with you that the world can be a very unjust place, but I honestly believe that's simply down to human nature and I've never heard of a political system yet that can change that.

I liked the analogy of the artist and the apple...somehow it reminded me of David Cameron lecturing the East End on deprivation. "He jests of scars that never felt a wound", as someone once said.

One thing I think we can agree on; no matter how many different kinds of socialism there are, Gordon Brown has no intention of implementing any of them.
(said he, getting neatly back on thread.)

P.S. Good to hear from you again, and good luck with the other.

[Govangirl]

Hear, hear Hugh (alliteration at its best!) I agree Ionns had a great post there but yours was great too. This is when the forum works best.

[ionnsaigh]

Govangirl,
Went off to Kintyre for the weekend - Josh included, he saw an angler pull four silver darlings from Campbeltown Loch, and touched one of the wriggling fish - he watched in amazement as a large seal came for a bite of tea. Great stuff --great place.

[Govangirl]

Aye, you're giving him great memories there!

[ionnsaigh]

Anyway enough of the idle chatter. Socialism is a stage of transition from a capitalist to communist society. A necessary moral stepping stone - to a society free of hunger want and war. You don't have to feel poor to be poor, a hen house chicken - will having no experience of life in the open air - however it is poorer for it.
I don't think there is insufficient funds in our national kitty ( Scotland ) to go round in a fairer fashion. The accumulative wealth could be distributed to ensure all our citizens enjoy a middle class existence.
As far as controlling people is concerned - one would have to change laws, that protect private property more - than they do the poor amongst us. Poverty should be seen as a social evil, it's existence should be outlawed in our new Scotland.
Why should we allow ourselves to think, in terms of helping the weakest in a society?. Such socialism would be a charitable charade - the poor hands held out in eternity, depending on the crumbs from middle class tables. The success of the lottery in Scotland - show quite clearly the level of discontentment felt.
Yes we should have good roads and good everything else - however as I have stated previously, I would go for the cheapest and best option when it comes to our defence.

[Govangirl]

Ionns, I could argue all night - and there's a lot in that post I could argue with - but I prefer idle chatter!!!!