Dambusters

[ionnsaigh]

I must admit that Smokynuk's valid crictism, took the wind out of my sails.Those terms that I used have never been spoken ernestly, either by myself wife or our two sons. I remember about 20 years back - Fiona worked part time in the local Asda,
she refused to unpack any South African goods, we both actively supported the boycot asking family and friends not to buy S. African goods. At that particular time I worked in a small art gallery, just me and the owner Ali, who happend to be a Bantu from Africa. He named his first son after me, even at a time when he was an active Christian, and I an active Athiest. Suprised we managed to get any work done.
Anyways I will try and curtail the compulsive side of my nature. Sorry if iv'e caused offence.
P.S. My computer has suffered some sort of nervous breakdown - this is my sons, I can't find the spell check. God knows how many spelling mistakes are here.

[Govangirl]

Ionns, it is a shame you have had to aplogise. Your original poem, in context was indeed intended to show the ugliness of racist language. (I disagree entirely with your use of 'pigs' though........) One sure thing we know about you is that you haven't a racist bone in your body.
This argument is a very valid one in our society today, I think. Currently, we are studying Steinbeck's Of Mice and Men in class, a GCSE set text in schools all over England. When the pupils meet the racism showed by the ranch hands towards Crooks, especially at the term 'nigger' used frequently, they are shocked. It yearly sets up a long and valuable discussion but always, always shows them how unacceptable and shocking it is. They need to understand the history and context of it in order to shape their views on it today. It is the way that the character Crooks articulates his anger and loneliness that really affects them. Now, I'm sure you know that every year some establishment in America attempts to ban this book - in fact, it is on the top ten list of banned books there - yet they are denying the young to see for themselves the effects of racism. I recall in the eighties when working with an ILEA school and there was a list of books to be banned from school libraries which included Robinson Crusoe. Again,this seemed to be an attempt to stop children thinking and talking about what was wrong about our history.
I guess it's about where we draw the line and as we can see on this thread, that can be complex (but necessary, I reckon). My view is that children should be encouraged to inquire and to seek knowledge, not deterred. In this context, I remember the author, Jeanette Winterson, once writing that as a child, her mother was extremely unhappy with her love of books and reading. The reason was that she claimed, "You just can't tell by looking at them what's in them."
Precisely. I actually feel the same about my children and what they're accessing on their computer. However, I much better at the thought of them accessing racism in books, so they can discuss it, than the dangers lurking on the web.
So I'm not about changing fact and for that reason, the dog's name should stay.

[smokynuk]

Ionns, it is a shame you have had to aplogise. Your original poem, in context was indeed intended to show the ugliness of racist language. (I disagree entirely with your use of 'pigs' though........) One sure thing we know about you is that you haven't a racist bone in your body.

I disagree Govangirl. It wasnt a shame he had to apologise although he was very gracious in doing so.

I refer you back to my post on page 3, the poem was completely out of order and for me had crossed the line, no matter in what context, you cannot justify it. Perhaps its because contrary to what you believe Ionns, those actual words do actually affect me personally and its something ive had to deal with all my life, so you can say my opinion is slightly different from your "former slum dwelling etc" stance. Im not having a go at you Ionns, just giving you an idea where im coming from, and again, i appreciate your posts afterwards.

But again as I stated on my post in the previous page Govangirl, its always easy to take an objective stance on things when such hurtful comments dont affect you. You can discuss it all you like, but you dont have a personal history with those comments.
I feel like im repeating myself here, but i like to make my position clear. I dont mind discussion on such subjects, in fact i would encourage them. My problem was with the poem itself regardless of its reason, it had crossed the line for me. Maybe it didnt for you or anyone else on here who can justify its existence, but then again, your not any one of those so called "ethnics" are you? There are far better ways of bringing the subject to the fore, as a teacher i thought you might have understood that. In fact the comments you have made have proven my point on bringing the subject to the fore in a responsible way.

[4th gen Suthen']

At that particular time I worked in a small art gallery, just me and the owner Ali, who happend to be a Bantu from Africa. He named his first son after me:

There cant be many Ionsaigh Bantus about!

About Guy Gibson's doag.....I have RAF family connections and always have had a great interest in WW2 in general I have read scores of RAF books over the years and have much RAF memorabilia about the house....medals from the time etc etc.

I do think that it makes absolutely no difference to the Dam Busters story what GG's dog is called in the film.

Call it Ninge then it is a nod towards the real name for those of us who know ...a kind of secret "in" refernce I suppose.
That would offend nobody and would not take away from the story in the slightest.

Also, about a remake....the original film is good but it was made a long, long time ago, in black and white! film technology has moved on beyond comparison since then.
If done correctly a new Dambusters film, could be absolutely wonderful.......as long as they dont go OTT with modern PC stuff......does not have to be totally historically accurate, I'm sure the original isn't.

[smokynuk]

As for the dog, well. I can understand both sides of the argument. But for the good of the film, it would probably be better to leave the real name of the dog out. Its a film about British achievements, although it would be sticking to historical fact if the name was left in, it would only sully the point of the film - take away the whole patriotic feel and bravery of the real men who were involved.

Not all films have to be historically accurate to communicate its message Braveheart being one example (Freedom!! gotta love that )

[£3.73]

So to summise :-

Ionns isn't a racist.

Who cares what the damn dog was called.

Let's hope that, even though it's a remake, modern technology can do this tale of inspired genius & heroism justice, and that the basic story isn't tweaked to the extent that 617 Squadron ally themselves with Team America in a fiendishly cunning plot to blow up Kim Jung Il.

RAmen

[Govangirl]

And Govangirl is in the 'dog'house again and needs to lay low for another week.........................getting used to it now Mr Moneyman

[4th gen Suthen']

The best WW2/escape/RAF book I ever read was Stolen Journey by Oliver Philpot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Philpot , the book was sent to me months later by a fellow WW2 buff I sat beside on a mini bus as we travelled through the Austrian Alps 24 years ago.

I have re-read it many times since then. The story is of the less known half of the "Wooden Horse" escapers. The better known version and film, concentrates mainly on Eric Williams.

The Wooden Horse could be remade as well!

[Govangirl]

No Gen', they might call the horse Black Beauty

[Beachcomber]

So many of these films *could* be re-made, but I do wonder at times whether some of them *should* be re-made.

There's something about black and white that adds to the atmosphere and character of a film that colour can't.

Imagine Casablanca or Brief Encounter re-made and in colour - it just couldn't be as good as the original.

There was a fad some years ago for taking Laurel & Hardy movies and colourising them. Although technically excellent it just didn't work for the film.

Maybe it's a little akin to studio versus live recorded music?

[Govangirl]

This week, at our local cinema, there's a re-showing of 'A Matter of Life and Death' (aka Stairway to Heaven) with David Niven. A real classic which I think needs the original black and white. To be shown in a fortnight: 'Now Voyager' to which my pal and I will be rushing. I can't even begin to imagine a remake starring Jolie and Pitt.

[ionnsaigh]

Well first things first. Strictly speaking yes I'm a racist. In as much as I enjoy - the sheer beauty of the diversity of all life forms
Do I hold any one race above another, No. We are all the same in terms - of our own individual uniqueness - ( no contradiction ).
Admittedly I appeared to favour the banning of the offending word - as I thought that the use of the word - in those terms was racism in action. However my opinion has been swayed somewhat - I now think along the same lines as Martin, ( God forbid ) .
If for example - when slavery was rightfully abolished - how amiss of society - if the actual reference slave was outlawed with it. Why ? as apparently the term caused great offence to some.
How important to society -that we endeavour not to make the same mistakes twice. A lets ban all - is in many ways akin to the fascist burning of forbidden books.
No keep the word in , least we forget.

[£3.73]

FFS Ionns !!!

M kay, you are a man who wears his beliefs like a badge. Revolution is just a t-shirt away and all that !!!

But synchronicity says look at this link ....some of these brave souls are still leaving us .....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7652091.stm

[Govangirl]

as a teacher i thought you might have understood that.

Like Ionns, I should apologise. You have enlightened me and I now realise I've been doing it wrong all these years. Thank you so much.

My son was, at one time, into rap music. I couldn't believe my ears at the lyrics! One song had the 'n' word 28 times! And don't start me on the overuse of the word 'bitch'. Now, I'm not trying to be controversial but I really, really don't understand how kids are supposed to feel about a word that they hear in this way all the time. I'm seriously asking, because I don't know, if it is only white people who should not use this word. I find it utterly repugnant but tell me why these black rap singers constantly call each other 'n..... brothers' on their songs?

[ionnsaigh]

My sister met her future husband, at teachers training college in Glasgow. To cut a long story short - she joined him in Zambia, and has remained in Africa this last 30 years. She recalled waiting in a long queue at the post office - to her shock and horror - the black owner quickly came over apologising " Madam please their is no need for you to queue, come to the front " .
Wesley s parents where shocked and horrified - that he came back with a whitey. Racism is a cancerous phenomena that strikes all races. Look at the racists statements, published in the British press at the time - when describing the Irish immigrants.
The Italian Chinese Asian Communities, have suffered at the hands of irresponsible news empires. Generally people who are racist - belong within the legions of the easily impressed - by the red tops. If that is the case then I would hold on to some hope that perceptions can change - along with those dreadful red tops.