Comic Relief and Cash

[Govangirl]

I had posted this yesterday but like all Saturday posts, it disappeared. Thought it was worth posting again as there were great responses.

I do have some problems with these big charity extravaganzas but what does it say about a country in recession when it raises £57million in one night for those in REAL poverty?

[ionnsaigh]

--------Scottish Poverty line----------------

[Govangirl]

I think there's a difference. The people we saw Friday night wouldn't be crying under the line - they'd be dead.

[ionnsaigh]

I would say that the most important point to remember, is that the line in Scotland exists. So the poor in this country can take heart - that if they suffered from the same condition - being poor in Africa - they would be dead. This type of media hype distorts public opinion, it reduces the harsh conditions of the poor in this country, by pitting them against third world poverty.
The difference between mortality rates of the classes in Scotland - is tantamount to at least - neglect by government.

[Govangirl]

I accept that Ionns although 1 it's not just in Scotland. There are pockets of poverty all over the UK and 2 there is actually a very big difference between some Africans and some Scots. All of the people to which you refer have basic healthcare, schooling, etc. The contrasts were shocking.

[£3.73]

Ionns lets be realistic here ...

Your glass always appears to be half empty chief !

At the very minimum in this country you have basic shelter, sanitation, food, and a million other wee things that get taken for granted.

The fact that you also have a computer, the internet ... what does that say about you ?

It says to me that you don't live in a mudhut somewhere with none of the above.(like a great deal of earths population).
Add in tinpot dictatorships, armed militia prowling the streets, AIDS, famine etc etc ... I find your posts highly entertaining, but seriously, there are a lot of people out there with more to complain about than yourself (and no means to do so).

If you were a believer in true solidarity, then you would accept that your "brothers & sisters" in the 3rd world are not on a parity with their peers in the west and need a wee hand.

[Govangirl]

Once again, you've said it all so succintly, £3.73!

[Mary G]

Well said all of you.

I love how engaged kids get in considering things like Comic Releif. Seeing 'Dr Who' get excited about mosquito nets, for example, really hits home.

On relative poverty - throughout the world - check out this wee device - fascinating!

http://www.globalrichlist.com/index.php

[ionnsaigh]

£3.73 lets be realistic here....

The problem arises due to your own poor definition of poverty. Why focus on the absolute variety? when poverty in Scotland is quite clearly relative?. Your glass is completely empty chief - relatively speaking !
So the poor in this fabulously wealthy country, have basic shelter and a million other wee things that get taken for granted. Then why do they die Fifteen years prematurely then ? even with those million wee things.

I find your posts highly entertaining also - hark the pampered Middle Class

Seriously though, if you could show some compassion to your Scottish brothers and sisters, without that shallow comparison with the third world -that the poor in Scotland need a wee hand also.
Just a wee footnote, Why do you think I'm poor? - do you honestly think that I act out of self interest.
Poverty is like an apple - you may be able to describe it - however if you've never tasted it

[£3.73]

Just a wee footnote, Why do you think I'm poor? - do you honestly think that I act out of self interest.

Just a wee sleight of hand magic question. Which sleeve did ye pull that one out from ?

Poverty is obviously as unnacceptable in Scotland as it is in the 3rd world. However, as critical as I can be in certain postings on certain subjects, I would never suggest that in this country there is absolutely no hope of redemption: no resources or lifelines available for those who want to at least attempt to escape "the poverty trap". Perhaps this might change if there's a sudden influx of "noveaux poor" due to the current financial climate, and those resources are overloaded.

I would hope we can agree that relative to Scotland, the 3rd world would appear to be faced with "absolute" poverty.
I also don't think the act of giving is a hollow, feel good gesture as you suggest. It may be ultimately futile ... and I don't like Lenny Henry on my tv any more than the next person ... but it raises awareness, and helps some (which is better than none)

[Govangirl]

You know Ionns, I don't want to get into an argument about what causes poverty in inner cities and the like but we are talking about REAL poverty here. We're not talking about poverty in Scotland. Poverty is in Africa. Fact: there is no shortage of Scots from 'very underprivileged' backgrounds who have managed to drag themselves out of their 'poverty' - including those who can claim to have taken a large bite of your wee metaphorical apple!
The problem is that some people will never do anything as long as they are spoon fed, patronised by being told it is someone else's fault they're in a mess (may be true) and someone else's responsibility to get them out of it (not true).

[ionnsaigh]

The problem is that some people will never do anything as long as they are spoon fed, patronised by being told it is someone else's fault they're in a mess (may be true) and someone else's responsibility to get them out of it (not true).

Well if that's the case then surely it's equally applicable to Africa?. It appears sadly the poor stereotypical attitude towards the poor in this country ( Scotland ). Many millions of Africans endure a life, of chronic ill health slum housing and premature death, similar to their Scottish cousins - yet relatively speaking when juxtaposed with the starving and dying they disappear off the moral radar.

Fact: there is no shortage of Scots from 'very underprivileged' backgrounds who have managed to drag themselves out of their 'poverty' - including those who can claim to have taken a large bite of your wee metaphorical apple!

Where are they? you see from the deepest depths of Maryhill - whole generations of poor families have been born raised and died - without having tasted what life has to offer for some. If you take your analysis to it's fullest conclusion, then both you and I could adopt this attitude towards our own families. Perhaps countless generations have been spoon fed not taking responsibility and blaming it on someone else . Or perhaps there is an underlying dark current that runs through life, chiefly the rich hold on to their wealth passed from one generation to the other, sure you can find exceptions however that is what they are - a minuscule number in the scope of things. One has absolutely no choice in determining the wealth of their parents - be they rich poor or between. Yet according to you, only the poor have this herculean task ahead of them - the other two thirds, at least have the advantage. I uphold the belief that all human beings should be equal, no more or less.

including those who can claim to have taken a large bite of your wee metaphorical apple!

In many respects the apple is like a bike - you may have experienced it many many years ago, and proudly proclaim that you can ride a bike - the reality of the matter is, that you think you remember how to go it - it's only when you jump on again does the harsh reality give your idealistic memories of riding a bike - a good kick in the erse. I remember Fiona saying minutes before giving birth to Mathew our second son, oh god I forgot just how painful this actually was. As human beings we have an unconscious tendency, to push back hurtful or negative events in life to such an extent, that our perceived knowledge is out of kinder with reality.

O' Donnchadha descended from the High Kings of Ireland - or a bunch of spoon fed no hoppers. You decide!

[hugh]

Kilter. As in ' Your perceived knowledge is out of kilter with reality ', which it certainly is if you think the situation of "the poor" in Scotland stands any comparison with that of the poor in Africa. Like going to hospital with a cut finger and demanding to be treated before haemorrhaging road accident victims. Just sometimes comes across as more of a self-pitying whine than a political philosophy?

Mortality rates? Maybe you have to look closer to home to explain them. This may be controversial, but here goes; Maybe the lifestyle in the West of Scotland has something to with that? Drink, drugs, junk food etc. ... lifestyle's a personal choice in this country. Many in Africa don't have the luxury of choice. Maybe the world has to change before Africa prospers, whereas in this country there are many who think the world should revolve around them.

I think showbizzy charity is a good thing, and long may it continue. Comic relief raises awareness as well as a a lot of cash, so it's hard to knock it, but on a personal level I prefer charity with humility.

[Govangirl]

Hugh, I’m glad you got that contentious bit in before me. Africans must be quite incredulous about our use of the word 'poverty' in this country. No matter how you gloss over it Ionns, a great deal of Glasgow poverty has more to do with poor lifestyle choice. Poverty plays a part of course, particularly poor housing, but it is a mistake to use it as a blanket cover for all of the ills of a city.
I would imagine most people on here could quote people we know who've overcome a background of pecuniary poverty to become successes in life (and by success I don’t necessary mean wealth). Why?
Lately, I've felt the sense of a different kind of poverty now- a poverty of aspiration, confidence and ‘can-do’ mentality, a kind of ingrained hopelessness. That’s the poverty that holds people and whole areas back. And what a terrible hand-me-down to our children that is!
People say poverty in Glasgow was much worse generations ago but I don’t know – despite all the stories of no toilets and shoes, I don’t think it was this deprivation mess it seems to be now. Families had hopes and aspirations. It has taken the post-war welfare state, and billions of pounds, to create this kind of poverty. And this is the key: Africa needs money to train farmers, eradicate malaria and childhood diseases, provide clean water and sanitation services, build proper houses to replace mud huts and a host of other basic things. Sorry Ionns but we have thrown shedloads of money at some areas and it hasn’t made a bit of difference. It’s behavioural patterns we need to look at, certainly not more money.

[ionnsaigh]

Mortality rates? Maybe you have to look closer to home to explain them. This may be controversial, but here goes; Maybe the lifestyle in the West of Scotland has something to with that? Drink, drugs, junk food etc. ... lifestyle's a personal choice in this country. Many in Africa don't have the luxury of choice.

One has no choice of where your born, or who your parents may be - I think I can safely say that without fear of contradiction.
However when a baby is born, it inherits both the characteristics of it's parents, and the particular culture attributed to them. If that culture reinforces negative lifestyle choices - then the concept of free will is negated or obsolete. What choice do babies have ? as choice infers both knowledge and means. If going on a cruise is about personal lifestyle choices then one has to have the means to make that choice - the pounds shillings and pence. Otherwise those who don't have the means, have little in the way of choice. Drink drugs and junk food are not the exclusive sins of the poor - those classes above the social strata indulge also. So that doesn't explain the higher mortality rate now, does it? Poor slum housing and chronic ill health are contributing factors in the morally unacceptable levels of disease and death, within the working class population of Scotland.
Social exclusion by it's insidious nature, hampers or prevents informed choice, as much as lack of funds.

Kilter. As in ' Your perceived knowledge is out of kilter with reality ', which it certainly is if you think the situation of "the poor" in Scotland stands any comparison with that of the poor in Africa. Like going to hospital with a cut finger and demanding to be treated before haemorrhaging road accident victims. Just sometimes comes across as more of a self-pitying whine than a political philosophy?

Sorry I stand corrected, Kilter it is - however I hope my meaning wasn't distorted too much by this one word. I like to think that in terms of communicating, grammar takes second place to meaning.
You miss the point I was making hugh - my concern was that the meaning of poverty becomes distorted when you see those awful sights of babies dying ( lifestyle choice) ? For the sake of argument lets forget Scotland for a minute, What of the babies turned away from feeding stations because they may be a gram over the limit - these are also my concern - for they are tomorrows TV show. Back to Scotland and the cut finger brigade - nobody suggested that a cut finger, should be taken before a hemorrhage - what frightens me is the lack of any reference to that cut finger, or that the cut is self inflicted. We both know that prevention is better than cure - yet in this land Scotland, we have an open wound that will grow septic if not treated.
Get it up yer kilter