Praying man let his daughter die

[EMDEE]

It was interesting to hear this story today about a couple in the USA who have been found guilty of second degree reckless homicide by allowing their 11 year old daughter to die by praying for her rather than seeking medical assistance. It makes you wonder if religious beliefs, taken to extremes, rob people of their intelligence and reason.

Mr Neumann says that to consult a doctor is to put the doctor before God. Now he's finding out that the state puts criminal justice before God.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8180116.stm

[Govangirl]

To watch your daughter suffer and die is barbaric but I'm not entirely sure that this is all about religion - it's more about a couple who belonged to a group, probably a cult, that taught them that their God would heal everyone who asked. Christians know that God does not always answer prayer. True christianity/Religion cannot be to blame for this tragedy: it's one man's interpretation of it. Poor girl that suffered because of it.

[ionnsaigh]

True christianity/Religion cannot be to blame for this tragedy: it's one man's interpretation of it. Poor girl that suffered because of it.

What is true Christianity ? I was under the impression that all Christians took predestination as gospel. As such the actions of all those involved were predetermined and set, even before they where born. Or perhaps God gives limited freedom, by a choice of one path or another,open for followers to follow. After-all according to the bible, life is little more than a test, for us mere humans.

that taught them that their God would heal everyone who asked. Christians know that God does not always answer prayer.

Lets get this right, Christians believe that God can cure the sick, that his son can perform miracles. If Christians know that God does not always answer prayer - that infers that, to question why this may be so, implicates mans inability to understand the workings of God. Christianity reduces man to the ignorant savage when it comes to this question.
The Guy was unfortunate to say the least, he must have been using, that set of prayers that God doesn't answer. Is there a list ? otherwise how can one Christian call another barbaric, for praying to God.

[EMDEE]

When someone prays for something, there are two possible outcomes:

1. Good outcome- the prayers have been answered.

2. Bad outcome-God works in mysterious ways and we don't understand it so we shouldn't question it.

Either way, God comes out of it with his reputation unscathed.

Am I just being cynical?

[Bobbie En Tejas]

What is true Christianity ?

True Christianity is having the heart of Christ and being a follower of him. Just because a person has a label slapped on them, by themselves or someone else, doesn't make it so.

I was under the impression that all Christians took predestination as gospel.

That is Calvanism, ionns. Not "all" and probably not even most Christians believe that.

If Christians know that God does not always answer prayer - that infers that, to question why this may be so, implicates mans inability to understand the workings of God.

If there is an entity that is intelligent enough to create the universe, who would be arrogant enough to think they could understand that being? If you can understand that entity, then you are more intelligent than that entity.

Christianity reduces man to the ignorant savage when it comes to this question.
The Guy was unfortunate to say the least, he must have been using, that set of prayers that God doesn't answer. Is there a list ? otherwise how can one Christian call another barbaric, for praying to God.

Ionns, i personally knew someone, whose son was one week older than my daughter, when he died at age 2 because they believed god to heal him. He had meningitis. They weren't otherwise stupid people, they were actually normal people. The means to heal him was right in front of their face. They lived within walking distance of the hospital.

If a person is starving, he can't sit in a corner and pray for food when he can stand up and walk 10 feet and eat a feast, and then say his prayers didn't work.

[ionnsaigh]

True Christianity is having the heart of Christ and being a follower of him. Just because a person has a label slapped on them, by themselves or someone else, doesn't make it so.

That maybe the case, however there is far more chance of it being true, having that label than not.

That is Calvanism, ionns. Not "all" and probably not even most Christians believe that.

I think it would be fair to say that Christianity has many sects, akin to something being broken into thousands of pieces, yet they all lay claim, to the unbroken item. However all religions share one common belief - that is God. I would assume that all Christians believe in God.

If a person is starving, he can't sit in a corner and pray for food when he can stand up and walk 10 feet and eat a feast, and then say his prayers didn't work.

The question then begs, why pray to God, if the answer means standing up, and walking ten feet ? Which has absolutely nothing to do with God. You see from where I see things, some Christians have a choice between praying and medical science, if they choose to reject the latter, then hell mend them. The beauty of Science doesn't depend on your beliefs, science will ( if it can ) cure you regardless of faith. It wont matter if your a Christian, Muslim, Jew or Atheist, bad or good.
Science unlike religion - makes no such demands.

[Govangirl]

I'm not being flippant but it really reminds me of this joke:

There's a huge flood one day and an entire town looks like it's going to be swallowed up by the waters. The Police and Rescue Agencies are running all over the place trying to get people to safety.

So they send the rescue boat over to this house where a guy's sitting on the roof with the water lapping around his ankles and they say, "Come on, quickly, there isn't much time."

To which he says, "Oh no, it's ok, I have been praying and God will Provide"

So about an hour later they're zooming past in the boat again and they notice the guy's still there, only the water's up to his waist, almost at the top of the roof... "Quick," they say, "get in the boat, it's going to get worst before it gets better."

"No, don't worry - God will Provide and answer my prayers."

An hour after that a rescue helicopter flies over the area and notices the guy, who must be standing on the peak of the roof now, with only his head and shoulders out of the water. "GRAB THE ROPE!" they cry "IT'S YOUR ONLY HOPE!"

"Don't worry" he replies calmly, "God will provide."

So he gets drowned of course. And he goes to heaven, and is a little ticked off with God for drowning him like that, and expresses his concern, saying "I had FAITH, I PRAYED AND BELIEVED in you - and still you didn't help me!"

"HELP YOU?!" God replies "What MORE did you want - I sent you two boats and a helicopter!"

And that is at the centre of this sad tale because the answer to his prayers were at the hospital with the doctors and nursing team. Blind faith is not the answer.

[Govangirl]

The question then begs, why pray to God

You make it sound as if those who pray have a list of stuff they want God to do for them. I would say that most people pray to have a personal relationship with their God. Yes, they may pray for strength and guidance but in the end, they know the decisions they will make will be their own.

[ionnsaigh]

You make it sound as if those who pray have a list of stuff they want God to do for them. I would say that most people pray to have a personal relationship with their God. Yes, they may pray for strength and guidance but in the end, they know the decisions they will make will be their own.

I would say that if the guy was praying on a quest for a better relationship with God - rather than a miracle to save his daughter - then yes he is guilty of death by neglect. However if he was praying simply for his daughter !

[EMDEE]

Surely if the God that they believe in is the creator of the universe, then medical science, and its development by the human race is part of that creation, and therefore part of God's work. I think that is the point brought out by the story about the flood.

[Govangirl]

I would say that if the guy was praying on a quest for a better relationship with God - rather than a miracle to save his daughter - then yes he is guilty of death by neglect. However if he was praying simply for his daughter !

Ah, but I did not say that HE was praying to strengthen his relationship - I was referring to most Christians.

[ionnsaigh]

Surely if the God that they believe in is the creator of the universe, then medical science, and its development by the human race is part of that creation, and therefore part of God's work. I think that is the point brought out by the story about the flood.

Point is that the Bible and Christianity, generally speaking - have massive problems when it comes to Evolution, and for that matter all the Scientific Disciplines.

[Bobbie En Tejas]

[Point is that the Bible and Christianity, generally speaking - have massive problems when it comes to Evolution, and for that matter all the Scientific Disciplines.

Which theory? Seems that some evolutionists have problems with other evolutionists' theories. I doubt seriously that if there is a maker of science, that he is confused.

[EMDEE]

I actually don't see why religion should have a problem with the Theory of Evolution. If the story of creation as related in the Old Testament is regarded as being allegorical, and not to be treated literally, is it really incompatible with the Theory of Evolution? With the benefit of scientific research and the current state of our (limited) knowledge of the nature of the universe, does anybody seriously think that the individual(s) who originally wrote down the content of the Book of Genesis several thousand years ago were going to write a treatise on the Theory of Evolution? No, it is a symbolic representation of creation written by someone with the even more limited knowledge of the time. Is there any valid reason why Evolution Theory should either prove or disprove the existence of a supreme being?

[LANDROVER ROGER]

Was the Father playing God?