Lockerbie bomber: Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed Al Megrahi

[LANDROVER ROGER]

With you all the way Govangirl.

[Sweltered]

Thanks Govangirl, you saved me the bother.

One small point...I never said that I thought he was innocent. There's a difference between him being innocent and him not being the bomber.

[Tosh]

Have yourself a glass of freedom whisky and calm down, it's not going to happen.

Oh yes it is, it's happening already and anyone who doesn't believe it has their head in the sand.

You think Scotland is being boycotted? by whom? I'm guessing you have some stats to show me how many people have decided to switch to Irish and cancel their holidays in the last week, sorry but it's an even smaller flash in the pan than the whole French thing which blew over pretty quickly, can you still buy freedom fries?

Personally, I'm not sold on this guy being the bomber, BUT he should have remained in jail until the judicial process was completed. If he had died in the interim, so be it.

So you're happy for a man you think may be innocent to die of cancer in jail?

Of course there were a whole lot more involved in this terrorist act that was approved by Gaddafi but Al-Megrahi was found guilty in a Scottish court so if he is the only one of the bloody lot that we get, so be it. You're pleading for mercy for an unrepentant terrorist that destroyed not only 270 lives but those of their friends and families. I believe that compassion and mercy are very important values in a civilised society Tosh and I do want to live in a society that always errs on the side of mercy and compassion. But I also believe that these values do not negate others and to me, justice is the over-riding value here. We could have shown compassion and mercy by providing him with medical assistance and a comfortable, pain-free death whilst he ended his days in prison, something that would not have been afforded a Westerner in Libya.

You've replied to a different point, Sweltered said he was happy for a man to die in prison even if he was innocent, my point didn't relate to Al-Megrahi specifically but to 'an innocent man' if he's innocent he shouldn't be in prison full stop.

I'm not pleading for mercy for an unrepentant terrorist I don't know if Al-Megrahi was involved but it seems highly unlikely to me, a view shared by the majority of people who aren't American. He has always protested his innocence though to secure release he has had to give up his right to appeal and despite what seems to have been excreted by most of the media he did indeed express his sadness and compassion for the relatives of those who died. The justice you seek would appear to be revenge in a sheep's clothing.
I'm also perplexed by your assumption that a 'westerner' wouldn't be treated equally well in Libya, this appears to have no basis in fact but rather some misplaced prejudice.

To be honest, I have paradoxical feelings towards the Scottish decision. On the one hand, I am utterly ashamed and fear that now that the SNP has entered the stage of world politics, they have shown themselves to be totally out of their depth. On the other, mind you, I feel it was a extraordinary brave decision which probably shows they have put their principles first. But in the end, and perhaps it's wrong to think emotionally, I keep coming back to justice for those 270 who were never afforded any mercy themselves.

But you seem to think that Al-Megrahi being left to die in prison a long way from his family is justice even though the clever money say he was fitted up. I don't think emotion comes into it I think the man had little time to live and was used as a pawn in a big game at the same time saving millions of pounds (oh yes, don't think money didn't have a part in it) from the health service to the judicial system, how much does palliative care cast, how much do appeals cost?

[Govangirl]

Tosh, I'm not trying to have an argument with you. As I've said, I'm torn here and I respect your view. I'm just giving mine the way I see it. You know very well that I can give you no stats as yet but my friends in the States tell me that there is a strong campaign to get Americans to boycott Scottish (and British) goods and not to holiday here. One friend in Atlanta sent me the following which she said was in her newspaper today:

'Don't travel to Scotland or do business there (or in the United Kingdom in general) and don't buy any British or Scottish products.
Terrorists must never be shown compassion or mercy, for these people have no respect for human life. The British, who ironically have themselves been victim to numerous acts of terrorism on their own soil, seem to have forgotten.
They need a reminder, and protesting by boycotting travel and business with Scotland and the United Kingdom is the best way of doing so.'

All I'm suggesting here is that if you think Scotland won't be affected, it's a very naive view. The Americans will no doubt use the emotion you state 'doesn't come into it'.
And sorry, as for this terrorist being innocent, expressing sadness and compassion and the belief a Brit would get the same mercy in Libya - plllllllllease!

[Sweltered]

Please stop mis-quoting me Tosh. At no point did I say I was happy for a man to die in prison even if he was innocent. I said that the judicial process should run it's course. This has nothing to do with guilt or innocence.

Using your logic, should we release all sick prisoners when they make an appeal just in case they are found to be innocent

[blueboyno1]

There is something far wrong in this country when you get people complaining about freeing Ronnie Biggs who got 27 years for robbery with no one murdered and condoning the release of a piece of S*** who murdered 270 innocent people ,who were on there way home to be with their loved ones and family .some thing that some on here think is his right because he is dying .What compassion did he show his victims.

This country is being spoiled by the pc brigade .How can they justify young men being sent to war zones to combat terrorism and being slaughtered, when they release a convicted terrorist ,all these young soldiers lifes are worth a lot more than that .SHAME ,SHAME. SHAME.

[Tosh]

Please stop mis-quoting me Tosh. At no point did I say I was happy for a man to die in prison even if he was innocent. I said that the judicial process should run it's course. This has nothing to do with guilt or innocence.

At no point did I misquote you.
I did however ask you a question.You have since said that you don't think he was the bomber but don't think he's innocent either, not sure how that works considering that it's being the bomber that he's been convicted of.

Using your logic, should we release all sick prisoners when they make an appeal just in case they are found to be innocent

If, and only if, the balance of probability points to innocence then it's something that should be looked at.

[Ranald]

Using your logic, should we release all sick prisoners when they make an appeal just in case they are found to be innocent

To an extent, we do. Megrahi is the 24th person to have been released from a Scottish jail on compassionate grounds since the mid 1990s. 31 people have applied for compassionate release and only seven have been turned down. If the justice minister is convinced that the person has three months or less left to live then they'll generally be released.

Compassionate release is part of the Scottish justice system and we shouldn't make exceptions to that based on pressure from other countries and we can't start to take the crime committed into account either.

[Malky]

As I understand it, to be granted compassionate release a prisoner must meet certain criteria and it is qualified professionals who decide if that criteria is met. That information is then passed to the Justice Secretary who decides whether to grant it or not. As Ranald says, compassionate release is part of our justice system here and it should be applied equally and fairly to all who apply for it. If you take the person's crime into account, then you are not being equal.

And it's got nothing to do with the PC brigade either - it's all about following Scot's Law.

Kenny MacAskill could have taken the easy way out of this and decided not to release Megrahi. But, being compassionate is sometimes a very hard hard thing to do and Mr MacAskill made a brave decision. In doing so he acted fairly and didn't allow himself to be influenced by outside interests.

Malky

[Ross]

One friend in Atlanta sent me the following which she said was in her newspaper today:

'Don't travel to Scotland or do business there (or in the United Kingdom in general) and don't buy any British or Scottish products.
Terrorists must never be shown compassion or mercy, for these people have no respect for human life. The British, who ironically have themselves been victim to numerous acts of terrorism on their own soil, seem to have forgotten.
They need a reminder, and protesting by boycotting travel and business with Scotland and the United Kingdom is the best way of doing so.'
:

I think thats a quality quote for an American newspaper, it is indeed ironic that the Americans have forgotten about all the fund raising that took part to fund the IRA. Bit different when its on your own doorstep isnt it.

[Govangirl]

And it's got nothing to do with the PC brigade either
Malky

Would you include the victims, their families and the Americans in this? Who exactly are you referring to here? I think that's a bit unfair.

I think thats a quality quote for an American newspaper, it is indeed ironic that the Americans have forgotten about all the fund raising that took part to fund the IRA. Bit different when its on your own doorstep isnt it.

Aside, their press is no better than most of the dross we have in this country.
I totally agree with you Ross but in this case, I'm just trying to look at the real consequences in Scotland of that decision.

[hugh]

compassionate release is part of our justice system here and it should be applied equally and fairly to all who apply for it. If you take the person's crime into account, then you are not being equal.

So if Tom Hamilton had lived, was jailed, contracted cancer and had less than three months to live you think he should be shown compassion? All crimes are not equal, some are beyond the pale and have to be shown to be beyond the pale. And the crime that Megrahi was convicted of falls into that category. And since over 180 Americans died in that atrocity, I think their views should have been given a lot more respect.

And as for MacAskill, well I'm sorry, but I don't think that man even acted honourably, let alone fairly. Surely it's obvious that a deal was done? Compassion probably didn't even come into it.

[Govangirl]

So if Tom Hamilton had lived, was jailed, contracted cancer and had less than three months to live you think he should be shown compassion? All crimes are not equal, some are beyond the pale and have to be shown to be beyond the pale. And the crime that Megrahi was convicted of falls into that category. And since over 180 Americans died in that atrocity, I think their views should have been given a lot more respect.

And as for MacAskill, well I'm sorry, but I don't think that man even acted honourably, let alone fairly. Surely it's obvious that a deal was done? Compassion probably didn't even come into it.

I agree. You see, this decision worries me because it will open floodgates so that every Sutcliffe, Brady and Nilson will now plead terminal illness (in fact, I read today that they have made a special plea for Madoff as seemingly he has cancer too) and if you can let a killer of 270 go free what's a few murdered kids buried on a desolate moor? Hugh's right, all crimes are not equal.

Can I also ask if MacAskill was ever a man of the cloth? I really do not know a thing about him and asking seriously but wondered after his pulpit style and his arrogant reference to 'a higher judge' if he was.

I think it is an honourable thing that Scotland uses compassion and mercy in its law but if that bomb had gone off just a little earlier, it would have been in English territory and what then? For political and economic reasons, I'm sure that this terrorist would still have been released. Again, I agree with Hugh in that the Americans should have been afforded more respect and say in this.

[Martin]

Once again Scotland has been sold out by the English .There is no one in this world will convince ne that this man was not released due to pressure from whitehall .We are the laughing stock of the world after the welcome home scenes shown on the news .If ever there was a reason for bringing back capital punishment this was it .He looks good for a man who is supposed only to have weeks to live .What a way for Scotland to dissrespect the souls of 270 murder victims .

WELL DONE SCOTLAND.

Sold out by The English ? Oh FFS, WTF will you do when we finaly manage to gain our independence from Scotland ? You'll have no-one to blame things on any more and for the first time ever you'll have to take responsibillity for your own actions. Oh dear, I can't wait for the fun.
I sincerley hope that by that time we (England) have managed to distance ourselves from you whinging Scots, so that at long last we (England) will be recognised as an independent nation.
BTW folks, I wouldn't shout too loudly about being oil rich, as when that big black fella across the water wants the oil....you lot have got no chance.
One more thing, your so-called government sold you all out, they don't give a shit if a Scots town got hurt and Scot's died, it's time to make themselves look good in the eyes of the world.
Sold out ? By your own people.

[Malky]

And it's got nothing to do with the PC brigade either
Malky

Would you include the victims, their families and the Americans in this? Who exactly are you referring to here? I think that's a bit unfair.

I was referring to an earlier post by blueboyno1. Not sure why you think I'm being unfair

Malky