A83 road closure

[howlsatthemoon]

If you time it right I suggest taking the ferries. You can do the whole journey in well under 3 hrs, and have a couple of sleeps.

Approx. journey times

cambeltown - tarbert (37 miles) - 45 minutes
tarbert - portavadie (book of car driver tickets works out a £7 per journey) - 30 minutes
Portavadie - Dunoon (30 miles) - 45 minutes
Dunoon - Gourock (western ferries, buy a car/driver return in Sandbank about £13 rtn) - 25 minutes
Gourock - Glasgow (30 miles) 30 minutes

Hope this helps.

cheers

Pete

This would be ok if you were a frequent traveller to Glasgow, but for the person who just wants to go for a days shopping it would cost £58.75 for 1 passenger + car or £97.00 for 4 passengers + car

[WC1]

Beachcomber wrote:-

So in the two years since the last time this road was blocked the council have done nothing to come up with an alternative (shorter) diversion?

How exactly would YOU change the basic geography of the west of Scotland?

[kintyre forum news 4]

Latest update

Progress to remove the material from the A83 has been good. However, inspection work to the hillside, above and below the road is still on-going. Scotland TranServ have indicated that the road will remain closed until at least tomorrow afternoon.

A further update will be provided then.

Stewart Turner
Head of Roads & Amenity Services
Argyll & Bute Council
Manse Brae
Lochgilphead
Argyll PA31 8RD

http://www.argyll-bute.gov.uk

[Beachcomber]

How exactly would YOU change the basic geography of the west of Scotland?

See my earlier post, Bill.

There is a forestry road on the other side of the valley. In two years it could have been purchased and upgraded sufficiently that it would have provided a relief bypass for the A83 at the Rest. All it would have taken was political will and impetus.

[Malky]

The road will re-open today (Thursday 10th September) at 3.00pm. Till the next time then

Malky

[WC1]

Bechcomber wrote

There is a forestry road on the other side of the valley. In two years it could have been purchased and upgraded sufficiently that it would have provided a relief bypass for the A83 at the Rest. All it would have taken was political will and impetus.

There' a bit more to it than that. Before it "could" be purchased, the owner of the road would have to agree to sell it. Then a price would have to be agreed and the money for it found without increasing Council Tax or any other kind of tax. Then there's the question of what it would take to upgrade this forestry road. I'm pretty certain the civil engineering standards required for any kind of public road will be a lot higher than for a forestry track. How much per mile to upgrade the road then? And all this negotiation, conveyancing, planning, design and construction within two years? I don't think so.

And all this is based on the assumption that any future landslip will happen on the same stretch of the Rest and Be Thankful. What if it doesn't? What if the next one (assuming there will be a next one) is between Cairndow village and the head of Loch Fyne, as happened before? Or in Glen Kinglass? The basic geology and geomorphology are the same - it's all just glacial moraine - and the weather conditions that trigger a landslide are the same across both valleys. So another landslip could happen anywhere between Cairndow and Arrochar, not just on the east side of Glen Croe.

Like it or not, no sensible cost/benefit analysis would support building any kind of relief road in Glen Croe.

[Nomad]

what about a ferry running from Campbeltown...........

[EMDEE]

And all this is based on the assumption that any future landslip will happen on the same stretch of the Rest and Be Thankful. What if it doesn't? What if the next one (assuming there will be a next one) is between Cairndow village and the head of Loch Fyne, as happened before? Or in Glen Kinglass? The basic geology and geomorphology are the same - it's all just glacial moraine - and the weather conditions that trigger a landslide are the same across both valleys. So another landslip could happen anywhere between Cairndow and Arrochar, not just on the east side of Glen Croe.

Is it not the case that the civil engineering works that created this road in the first place 40-50 years ago contributed to an instability on the hillside, and that this is going to be a recurring problem as the years go on? Looking at the photos it looks as if a shelf was created on the hillside to carry the new road. A very similar, if not bigger, landslide occurred at Glen Ogle in Perthshire about 5 years ago in heavy rain during the summer, and this is a place that has a very similar topography. Glen Ogle is scenically very similar to Glen Croe.

[WC1]

Emdee wrote

Is it not the case that the civil engineering works that created this road in the first place 40-50 years ago contributed to an instability on the hillside, and that this is going to be a recurring problem as the years go on?

Don't think so Maurice.

"Debris flows occur, in the main, because of the character of natural slopes, the deposits of which they are comprised, and the amount and duration of rainfall (and consequent infiltration) to which they are subject. The fact that they impact on a road network is, irrespective of the consequences, coincidental in the phenomenological sense. Debris flows affecting the trunk road network are not caused by its construction and/or management, except in unusual circumstances."

That comes from the Scottish Government's Road Network Landslides Study (2005). You can get the full thing at:-

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications ... 1738/17395

[Beachcomber]

Like it or not, no sensible cost/benefit analysis would support building any kind of relief road in Glen Croe.

That's all well and good for you to say, but your livelihood doesn't rely on being able to get from Kintyre to other parts of the UK, or people being able to get to Kintyre. Imagine if you were a shop proprietor or a haulage company or a hotelier.

Two years is a long time, despite what the bureaocrats try and tell us.

The forestry road is sited on, surprisingly enough, Forestry Commission land and so it is unlikely that protracted negotiations would be required to agree a price for the route. Ultimately there is the compulsory purchase mechanism.

Sure, it might never happen again but the cynic in me suggests that it will. Why? Well it has before, and before that, and before that.

Unless someone is prepared to give a cast iron guarantee that it won't happen again, say within 10 yrs (to be generous), it makes sense to make provision for an alternative.

Where else would a sixty mile detour be thought of as acceptable?

[maxmix]

what about a ferry running from Campbeltown...........

Good alternative this would have been....

If we had a decent Council in Argyll and Bute this would be up and running a long time ago...

Amazing the amount of cash blown on the Campbeltown terminal all these years ago and never used....

maxmix

[EMDEE]

Emdee wrote

Is it not the case that the civil engineering works that created this road in the first place 40-50 years ago contributed to an instability on the hillside, and that this is going to be a recurring problem as the years go on?

Don't think so Maurice.

"Debris flows occur, in the main, because of the character of natural slopes, the deposits of which they are comprised, and the amount and duration of rainfall (and consequent infiltration) to which they are subject. The fact that they impact on a road network is, irrespective of the consequences, coincidental in the phenomenological sense. Debris flows affecting the trunk road network are not caused by its construction and/or management, except in unusual circumstances."

That comes from the Scottish Government's Road Network Landslides Study (2005). You can get the full thing at:-

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications ... 1738/17395

OK I don't want to argue with that study. I think however we need to take some studies with a pinch of salt. Have they been carried out on a completely scientific basis?

Don't you think that if you interrupt a hillside and create a shelf to carry a road, (which is totally unnatural) that there is going to be an impact on the integrity of that hillside? Nature does not respect the actions of the human race, and does not read any reports made on behalf of the Scottish Government/Executive. I don't think that you can create a road halfway down a mountain with the kind of traffic that has passed along this road over the last 40-50 years, and expect it to have no impact on the integrity of the surface of that mountain.

[Buzz Lightyear]

Dare i mention a further need for a ferry to/from the ayrshire coast........

[Malky]

....and expect it to have no impact on the integrity of the surface of that mountain.

It's not so much the integrity of the hill that is the problem here. The problem is the burn that runs down the hillside and passes under the road. During heavy rainfall, it also carries lots of debris with it - mud, rocks, plants etc. The culvert that carries the water under the road must be of sufficient size to also carry this debris and it obviously isn't. The steepness of the hillside adds to the problem as the faster water travels, the more debris it will take with it, especially if the burn is quite narrow.

They need more capacity under the road to keep the culvert from blocking - probably a number of culverts and I'm sure that would be less expensive than doing up the single track forestry road on the other side. And as this is a trunk road it is the responsibility of the Scottish Executive to carry out any upgrades.

Malky

[Ship called Dignity]

2.5 inches of rain were reported to have fallen in that area from Monday into Tuesday. The west coast of Scotland has also just had its wettest August on records.

It is odd that so many people point the finger of blame at Argyll & Bute Council when the responsibility clearly lies with the Scottish Exexutive.

It is worth mentioning however, that the people in charge of the clean operation deserve a huge pat on the back in getting this road open in 48 hours. Over 1000 tonnes of debris were removed - more than twice the amount that slipped in 2007.